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  1. #1
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Default What IS the "logical framework and structure of the outside world?"

    I'm learning about the function attitudes for my type, ISFP. Fi Se Ni Te

    I found a page that showed the function attitudes for all the types. I agree with their description of my dominant function - it is, indeed, very easy and comfortable for me to think about my values and make decisions based on those.

    But I don't understand what the inferior function is talking about. WHAT IS the "logical framework and structure of the outside world?" I want to try to think that way, but I'm not sure what to think about or how to do it. As in, I want to deliberately USE that inferior function and find out what it feels like.

    "ISFP

    "Feel most stimulated by using their internal feelings/values/beliefs to guide them to explore, make decisions, experience and connect with the present external physical environment using their 5 basic senses.

    "Feel most drained by the logical framework and structure of the outside world."

    So what exactly is the logical framework of the outside world, and how do you think about it? It's a deciding function, so it would be like making decisions based on something other than my values. I would make a decision based on... something. Every time I try to "think" and use logic, I find myself talking about values again. Everything always leads me back to saying that this decision would be good for me or bad for me, I would like it or I wouldn't like it, etc. Do Te dominant people make decisions and just ignore their feelings about what they would like or dislike? That seems impossible. However, it might be true. In fact, I think I've seen it happen.

    It happens in situations like this: The manager says something to the effect of, "I really don't want to fire you, but you broke this rule..." or "I wish we didn't have to do these corporate layoffs, but our company is losing too much money." They might not like the decision but it feels necessary, and they choose it based on necessity instead of on what they like or dislike. However, that still sounds like "values" to me. It's just a different set of values.

    My goal is to learn how to deliberately switch on the various functions, all eight of them, and to know when I'm using each one, and to know when each one is appropriate. Can anyone else give me examples of Te? I'd also like some examples of Ni.

    I'm very clear on what Fi and Se feels like. That's a very accurate description of my experiences.

  2. #2
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I can't really tell you much about Te, but I can tell you about Ni.

    Incidentally, MBTI itself could be considered very Ni. Ni is about looking at things from different perspectives, trying to see the future implications of actions, thinking about what something represents in a symbolic fashion, etc.

    It's best contrasted with Se. Se trusts the default perspective on the surface, instead of looking at multiple perspectives which are never completely trusted. It pays attention to what's going on right now, rather than future implications. Se is aware of obvious symbolism, like a cross representing Christianity, but it would ignore/dismiss any subtle symbolism, or alternative symbolism that Ni would tend to pick up on.

    Does that make sense? I can try to give you more specific examples if not. It's just a little difficult for me to come up with examples that represent the essence of what I'm talking about.

    Now, a TJ could tell you more about Te, but here's what I think it is. Te is like making a decision based on an external principle like, "What decision/plan will make this company more profit?" even if you don't like that company and secretly want it to fail. It's also like being aware of schedules and constraints, adhering to them, and making plans primarily in order to get around them to achieve a specific, impersonally-defined goal (like, get to Dallas within 3 days and spend less than $50), with what is desired as an afterthought. The logical framework and structure in this case, would be the speed limits, gas prices, the condition of the vehicle being used, bus ticket prices, distance between your starting point and destination, the weather, traffic conditions, and more. And the final decision is made using the cheapest or fastest solution that falls within those parameters, regardless of whether it's personally desirable.

    Te can be seen in filing systems, and many organizational structures. It's very, very common in corporate environments.

  3. #3
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Ni:
    Introverted Intuition is the attitude of attunement to what cannot be said, by virtue of the structuring that "saying" requires.

    For example: At work, we don't dare say our true feelings (or we can only say them if they're positive), because we know that sharing them would bring dire economic consequences. There is no other way, because the structure of the workplace (people working cooperatively to get stuff done that they get paid for) requires that people refrain from saying anything that might put their loyalty in doubt. If an accountant, in his office, says that he loves accounting, you view this as meaningless because, well, what else is he going to say? In fact, he might very well hate accounting. You have to be highly attuned to what's really going on in order to read the true meaning of what people say--which is often the opposite of the literal meaning of their words. (See Eric Berne.)

    For example: Why do we put North at the top of most maps? Because the mapmaking tradition began among northern-dwelling people, who considered people who lived further south to be less important. Putting North at the top of the map frames geography in a way that, perhaps unwittingly, conveys the belief that Europeans are better or more important than Africans. This can't be said by anything within the map; the very way that the map is structured and related to reality says it.

    For example: What does music mean? You can't say it. It's ineffable. (See Introverted Intuition and the Meaning of Music.) What is God? What is spirit? Any attempt to capture these things in words only cheapens them.

    Introverted Intuition is an attitude of "seeing through" the distortion that any interpretation creates, to see the underlying reality. It's a left-brain attitude in that it's sign- and symbol-oriented: attempting to grasp the system of interpretation that makes any particular way of representing reality work, as a prerequisite for using that system. From an Ni ego-state, you want to understand the assumptions of a system of representation before you use the system, so that you can use it with true freedom--including the freedom to use the built-in interpretations in ways that violate those assumptions.
    As a Tertiary Function, Ni typically leads ISPs to suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions. Sometimes ISPs draw upon Ni to find ways to throw a monkey wrench into social systems that call them into some kind of obligation: to respond in ways that don't make sense within the system's explicitly stated ways of interpreting behavior as cooperative or hostile (but are indeed hostile).
    http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition
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    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  4. #4
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Te:
    As a dominant function, Te typically leads one to pursue and collect reliable ways of making decisions to get predictable results. The repeatability of a process becomes one of the main criteria for finding it valuable. Repeatable processes are valuable from a Te perspective because they enable you to make agreements with other people, where there is no doubt as to whether each party has fulfilled its part of the agreement. Making and delivering on promises is often how a Te attitude leads one to understand ethics.
    Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/ex...dthinking.html
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  5. #5
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I'd say that it's understanding the natural cause and effects of your surroundings, as well as simply understanding that this world is extremely logical because of the fact just mentioned. It's very mechanical. The only concrete example I can think of is something along the lines of physics. It dictates what can and cannot occur in this world, it puts a giant barrier upon possibilities and makes you much more realistic.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I'd say that it's understanding the natural cause and effects of your surroundings, as well as simply understanding that this world is extremely logical because of the fact just mentioned. It's very mechanical. The only concrete example I can think of is something along the lines of physics. It dictates what can and cannot occur in this world, it puts a giant barrier upon possibilities and makes you much more realistic.
    I know of a few laws of reality.

    1. scarce resources
    2. limited time
    3. limited human energy

    We don't have infinite resources, or infinite time, and even when we have enough time or resources we still have to motivate ourselves or some other person to do something. If you're sick, tired, or whatever (and I know all about that from having chronic fatigue syndrome) then you won't be able to get things done. If you can't convince someone else to cooperate with you, then you can't make other people do things for you.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Te is like making a decision based on an external principle like, "What decision/plan will make this company more profit?" even if you don't like that company and secretly want it to fail. It's also like being aware of schedules and constraints, adhering to them, and making plans primarily in order to get around them to achieve a specific, impersonally-defined goal (like, get to Dallas within 3 days and spend less than $50), with what is desired as an afterthought. The logical framework and structure in this case, would be the speed limits, gas prices, the condition of the vehicle being used, bus ticket prices, distance between your starting point and destination, the weather, traffic conditions, and more. And the final decision is made using the cheapest or fastest solution that falls within those parameters, regardless of whether it's personally desirable.

    Te can be seen in filing systems, and many organizational structures. It's very, very common in corporate environments.
    I've always admired people who are able to do that, find a way to get to Dallas in 3 days for less than $50, that kind of thing, because that's something that I can't do easily. I feel like I *could* do it if I absolutely had to, but I tend to avoid thinking that way and I usually take a more careless approach. (Get in the car, gas tank empty light is on, who cares, just go out and drive on fumes until the very last minute, and don't even bother remembering what the gas prices are nowadays, etc.)

    I've been reading the pages that you and IndyAnnaJoan have mentioned and it's very helpful. I am paying attention to my own ways of thinking and I can actually see the processes going on now that I know more about what the functions are.

  8. #8
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retmeishka View Post
    I'm learning about the function attitudes for my type, ISFP. Fi Se Ni Te

    I found a page that showed the function attitudes for all the types. I agree with their description of my dominant function - it is, indeed, very easy and comfortable for me to think about my values and make decisions based on those.

    But I don't understand what the inferior function is talking about. WHAT IS the "logical framework and structure of the outside world?" I want to try to think that way, but I'm not sure what to think about or how to do it. As in, I want to deliberately USE that inferior function and find out what it feels like.

    "ISFP

    "Feel most stimulated by using their internal feelings/values/beliefs to guide them to explore, make decisions, experience and connect with the present external physical environment using their 5 basic senses.

    "Feel most drained by the logical framework and structure of the outside world."

    So what exactly is the logical framework of the outside world, and how do you think about it? It's a deciding function, so it would be like making decisions based on something other than my values. I would make a decision based on... something. Every time I try to "think" and use logic, I find myself talking about values again. Everything always leads me back to saying that this decision would be good for me or bad for me, I would like it or I wouldn't like it, etc. Do Te dominant people make decisions and just ignore their feelings about what they would like or dislike? That seems impossible. However, it might be true. In fact, I think I've seen it happen.

    It happens in situations like this: The manager says something to the effect of, "I really don't want to fire you, but you broke this rule..." or "I wish we didn't have to do these corporate layoffs, but our company is losing too much money." They might not like the decision but it feels necessary, and they choose it based on necessity instead of on what they like or dislike. However, that still sounds like "values" to me. It's just a different set of values.

    My goal is to learn how to deliberately switch on the various functions, all eight of them, and to know when I'm using each one, and to know when each one is appropriate. Can anyone else give me examples of Te? I'd also like some examples of Ni.

    I'm very clear on what Fi and Se feels like. That's a very accurate description of my experiences.
    That's a poor description of Te you are trying to work with - I'm not surprised you arte having problems with it. Fi is evaluating things in terms of worth, particularly social, moral or emotional worth. In the primary position it creates a strong sense of attentment and importance to those evaluations. Te is about assessing things in terms of pragmatic utility and necessity. In the primary position it also creates a strong urge to respond to those necessities and opportunities.

    As you can see, they are very different ways of looking at the world. Introverted judging and extroverted judging are opposed to each other because it is so hard to be both utilitarian and idealistic at the same time.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    That's a poor description of Te you are trying to work with - I'm not surprised you arte having problems with it. Fi is evaluating things in terms of worth, particularly social, moral or emotional worth. In the primary position it creates a strong sense of attentment and importance to those evaluations. Te is about assessing things in terms of pragmatic utility and necessity. In the primary position it also creates a strong urge to respond to those necessities and opportunities.

    As you can see, they are very different ways of looking at the world. Introverted judging and extroverted judging are opposed to each other because it is so hard to be both utilitarian and idealistic at the same time.
    What I've discovered so far is, no matter how hard I try to see things from the perspective of the other functions, I always find myself going back to my default way. I think that I'm 'thinking,' but actually I'm feeling again. Those other functions are so weak and subtle that it's almost impossible to find them.

    I'm actually reading a web page about Lenore Thompson's book right now so I'm getting some more info on this.

    You said 'introverted judging' and 'extroverted judging.' What does that mean? Do you mean judging functions that are extroverted/introverted, like Te, Ti, Fe, and Fi? Or did you mean that feeling and thinking are opposed to each other because it's hard to be idealistic and utilitarian at the same time?

  10. #10
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    From that point I'd say you realize the, at times, 'scarcity' of your environment (Usually time/money) and work under those conditions to solve a problem that you might have within that environment. Forming and planning the best way to use the environment to get a nice proportion of efficiency and precision in solving the problem. It's a servant of Fi, with you, so it would be directed towards getting what you believe is most important.

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