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Coming up with solutions between Idealists and Rationals

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Of course, no one type is better than the other, but I've noticed a prevalent style of thinking between Idealists (NFs) and Rationals (NTs).

When asked to come up with a solution- most often, the NTs will come up with one- while NFs are better at point out the problem.

For example, I'm part of a book club and oftentimes, we'll engage in some philosophical discussions. When asked what they would like to do/accomplish- NFs usually answer in very general, terms- (eg, feed the hungry, help the poor) while NTs are more specific about exactly what they want to do (eg, create a law to ban mortgage companies from taking advantage of homeowners).

Also, NFs tend to idealize romantic relationships and perpetually looking for a soulmate that may or may not exist while NTs tend to want to be involved in relationships in which they can overcome obstacles by working together.

What has been your overall experience with either type?
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
9,801
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
NTs analyze, while NFs synthesize.

I love viewing pieces in regards to the role they play in whichever system they belong.

I'm big into correlations, analogies, metaphors, systems and whole-picture perspectives.

microcosms and macrocosms

duality

paradox

zero and infinity

oneness

nothingness

I can be quite general in my views of the world at large, but who isn't?

I believe the F heightens the intuitive function.

More often than not, I intuit/"feel" the answer/existence/meaning behind certain complex concepts and constructs, long before I understand why I know them.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
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Of course, no one type is better than the other, but I've noticed a prevalent style of thinking between Idealists (NFs) and Rationals (NTs).

When asked to come up with a solution- most often, the NTs will come up with one- while NFs are better at point out the problem.

For example, I'm part of a book club and oftentimes, we'll engage in some philosophical discussions. When asked what they would like to do/accomplish- NFs usually answer in very general, terms- (eg, feed the hungry, help the poor) while NTs are more specific about exactly what they want to do (eg, create a law to ban mortgage companies from taking advantage of homeowners).

Also, NFs tend to idealize romantic relationships and perpetually looking for a soulmate that may or may not exist while NTs tend to want to be involved in relationships in which they can overcome obstacles by working together.

What has been your overall experience with either type?
I'm a lot more idealistic than the NTs you describe, but perhaps that's because of the high F factor I have.

I'm a lot better at tweaking an existing idea than coming up with an idea from scratch. My ISTP husband says the same is true for him.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
When asked to come up with a solution- most often, the NTs will come up with one- while NFs are better at point out the problem.

What has been your overall experience with either type?
What do you expect out of an NF? Fe and Fi aren't exactly neat and precise functions. I think it's just a case of ideas being difficult to articulate. That is it takes time for me to formulate exactly what I wanted to say. I get rambly in order to solidify the solution in my mind.

NTs analyze, while NFs synthesize.
*agrees full-heartedly to statement above* :yes:
 

nemo

Active member
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
445
Enneagram
<3
The NFs I know are more holistic and sort of humanize everything. It's hard to describe, but they're good at feeling out the ebb and flow of the fluid between the actors on their universal set; they feel out the chords that bind people (or things) together. It's very inspiring.

Plus they have an adorable way of scrunching their nose up when they think really hard.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
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4w5
When asked to come up with a solution- most often, the NTs will come up with one- while NFs are better at point out the problem.

What I usually do is point out the problems first, and then try to come up with solutions to them. I think it seems futile to suggest solutions when you haven't even determined the nature of the problems yet. I'm guessing that would indicate a mixed style.
For example, I'm part of a book club and oftentimes, we'll engage in some philosophical discussions. When asked what they would like to do/accomplish- NFs usually answer in very general, terms- (eg, feed the hungry, help the poor) while NTs are more specific about exactly what they want to do (eg, create a law to ban mortgage companies from taking advantage of homeowners).
Again, my style would seem to be a mix. I would probably start with something like "reduce the national debt." If I were asked how I thought that should happen, I would suggest that the government should cut programs and raise taxes, but that they're unwilling to do so because most of their voters don't think long-term, and want them to do the opposite. I might suggest that people need to somehow be conditioned to look at the long term, common good rather than the short term, individual good. In other words, I might start with something vague, but I could elaborate if asked.
Also, NFs tend to idealize romantic relationships and perpetually looking for a soulmate that may or may not exist while NTs tend to want to be involved in relationships in which they can overcome obstacles by working together.

My style doesn't seem much like either here. I would say that I'm not particularly interested in romantic relationships, but that I enjoy having people around that I feel comfortable talking to, and whom I feel understand me.

Anyway, I would venture to guess that the list you've come up with is most applicable to xNFP's, as it seems to accord with what I know of them.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
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9w1
Of course, no one type is better than the other, but I've noticed a prevalent style of thinking between Idealists (NFs) and Rationals (NTs).

When asked to come up with a solution- most often, the NTs will come up with one- while NFs are better at point out the problem.

For example, I'm part of a book club and oftentimes, we'll engage in some philosophical discussions. When asked what they would like to do/accomplish- NFs usually answer in very general, terms- (eg, feed the hungry, help the poor) while NTs are more specific about exactly what they want to do (eg, create a law to ban mortgage companies from taking advantage of homeowners).

Also, NFs tend to idealize romantic relationships and perpetually looking for a soulmate that may or may not exist while NTs tend to want to be involved in relationships in which they can overcome obstacles by working together.

What has been your overall experience with either type?
Seems a bit oversimplified. I'd have to have a framework for narrowing down what type of ill we are hoping to combat then study it from various angles in order to get maximum benefit for our efforts and to minimize unintended consequences. I don't keep optimal plans for solving specific problems on file in my brain for a rainy day.

My NT spouse usually has a better idea about the specific issues that are of interest to him. I'm not sure he has mentally drafted specific bills. I'll have to ask him sometime.

My spouse is really not interested in overcoming obstacles and working together so much as having a soft landing to come home to and someone to talk about issues and dream with. We can do the working together thing and do it well, but that is a thing of necessity. Obstacles suck. We'd rather play.

I don't know if I idealize romantic relationships. I've been in one for sixteen years, so the shiny has been scuffed more than once and I'm still here and happy. Either I don't over-idealize them or I am capable of idealizing them in the face of harsh reality. My inclination is to make a soulmate of anyone I'm close to, to cut through all the surface crap and get down to the nitty-gritty of who we are. My husband is a soulmate and certainly my closest one, but he isn't some kind of human holy grail.
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
My spouse is really not interested in overcoming obstacles and working together so much as having a soft landing to come home to and someone to talk about issues and dream with. We can do the working together thing and do it well, but that is a thing of necessity. Obstacles suck. We'd rather play.

Of course, it's fun to play when all's well- but I tend to think sometimes that Idealists will attempt to "change" people to conform to their particular ideals of what a relationship "should" be, and not what it is.

For example, there is one couple I know- ENFP female with INTP male- and she is forever attempting to make him into some kind of emotional wuss who is a surrogate of her therapist. In her point of view- she idealizes a partner as someone who gives her emotional support and advice, financially supports her, and basically acts like an indentured servant, putting his needs aside in order to satisfy her every need. She will even go to extremes to make all the decisions for him, and even screens all his phone calls and emails.

I admit- this is an extreme example- but the INTP male is actually very affable, popular and due to his attractiveness a lot of women are interested in him; however, he only listens when he knows he's being heard, and because she is a "confrontational" type who will argue just so someone can do what she wants- he tunes her out.

I had a very similar experience with her so can
attest to her unlikability.

I'm not sure if this is a trait particular to ENFPs- or NFs- but most other NFs I've encountered seem fairly pleasant and engage in active-listening.
 

INTJMom

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Of course, it's fun to play when all's well- but I tend to think sometimes that Idealists will attempt to "change" people to conform to their particular ideals of what a relationship "should" be, and not what it is.

For example, there is one couple I know- ENFP female with INTP male- and she is forever attempting to make him into some kind of emotional wuss who is a surrogate of her therapist. In her point of view- she idealizes a partner as someone who gives her emotional support and advice, financially supports her, and basically acts like an indentured servant, putting his needs aside in order to satisfy her every need. She will even go to extremes to make all the decisions for him, and even screens all his phone calls and emails.

I admit- this is an extreme example- but the INTP male is actually very affable, popular and due to his attractiveness a lot of women are interested in him; however, he only listens when he knows he's being heard, and because she is a "confrontational" type who will argue just so someone can do what she wants- he tunes her out.

I had a very similar experience with her so can
attest to her unlikability.

I'm not sure if this is a trait particular to ENFPs- or NFs- but most other NFs I've encountered seem fairly pleasant and engage in active-listening.
All I can say is,
"It takes two to tango."

He doesn't have to put up with it.
He can stand up for himself.
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
All I can say is,
"It takes two to tango."

He doesn't have to put up with it.
He can stand up for himself.

I'm sure he can! Why he doesn't seems illogical to me however, but perhaps the thought of being alone motivates one to continually stay in a verbally abusive dead end relationship.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Of course, it's fun to play when all's well- but I tend to think sometimes that Idealists will attempt to "change" people to conform to their particular ideals of what a relationship "should" be, and not what it is.

For example, there is one couple I know- ENFP female with INTP male- and she is forever attempting to make him into some kind of emotional wuss who is a surrogate of her therapist. In her point of view- she idealizes a partner as someone who gives her emotional support and advice, financially supports her, and basically acts like an indentured servant, putting his needs aside in order to satisfy her every need. She will even go to extremes to make all the decisions for him, and even screens all his phone calls and emails.
That doesn't sound like an ENFP.

I admit- this is an extreme example- but the INTP male is actually very affable, popular and due to his attractiveness a lot of women are interested in him; however, he only listens when he knows he's being heard, and because she is a "confrontational" type who will argue just so someone can do what she wants- he tunes her out.

I had a very similar experience with her so can
attest to her unlikability.
That REALLY doesn't sound like an ENFP.
I'm not sure if this is a trait particular to ENFPs- or NFs- but most other NFs I've encountered seem fairly pleasant and engage in active-listening.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
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INFJ
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9w1
Of course, it's fun to play when all's well- but I tend to think sometimes that Idealists will attempt to "change" people to conform to their particular ideals of what a relationship "should" be, and not what it is.

For example, there is one couple I know- ENFP female with INTP male- and she is forever attempting to make him into some kind of emotional wuss who is a surrogate of her therapist. In her point of view- she idealizes a partner as someone who gives her emotional support and advice, financially supports her, and basically acts like an indentured servant, putting his needs aside in order to satisfy her every need. She will even go to extremes to make all the decisions for him, and even screens all his phone calls and emails.

I admit- this is an extreme example- but the INTP male is actually very affable, popular and due to his attractiveness a lot of women are interested in him; however, he only listens when he knows he's being heard, and because she is a "confrontational" type who will argue just so someone can do what she wants- he tunes her out.

I had a very similar experience with her so can
attest to her unlikability.

I'm not sure if this is a trait particular to ENFPs- or NFs- but most other NFs I've encountered seem fairly pleasant and engage in active-listening.
Sometimes people with very passive partners get a bad rap for being domineering when really they are just doing what needs to be done because their partner will not do it. Both partners can come to resent the situation, but find it difficult to correct the pattern. INTPs are capable of being extremely passive, so I would think twice before assigning all the blame on this guy's wife.

Also, they may not really even be particularly dissatisfied. It can be very difficult to gage a couple's dynamic from the outside. My mother, for instance, thought for years that my husband was dominating me. While his mother thought I was controlling my husband (possibly through freaky sex, but she's not sure).

The truth: who knows? It's complicated. He works his rear off while I stay home. I handle all the money. I answer all the phone calls. He has no social life and goes nowhere except for work without me. He calls himself my 'whipped cracker.' He only half listens to me a fair minority of the time.

Am I dominating him? You try to get the man to answer the phone, lol. I've tried to get him to help manage the money. He has no interest in managing any money outside of the 401K. He tells me to give him $20/week and he wants me to pay the bills and make sure there is food to eat. Other than that, he doesn't care and wants to be left alone. He hates to drive, he has me take him where he wants to go. I chatter a lot and when I'm upset, I keep talking about the thing that upset me over and over. I need to do that to get it out of my system, but I don't expect him to actively listen once he has the gist of the situation.

My real secret of 'controlling' him? I handle the things I can handle myself myself. I try not to nag him. I ask for what I want, but I am careful about cashing in my chips. I'm sweet to him and there is the sex, but I'm not really much of a freak.

How does he dominate me? He's stubborn as all get out. You simply cannot make the man do something he does not want to do. Outside of that, he is sweet to me. He has never raised his voice at me in anger. He acts like I'm beautiful and he can't get enough of me. He makes me laugh all the time. Basically I adore him like I was his pet dog and I love to please him.

People think my brother's wife is a dominating control freak, but what they don't realize is that my brother was raised to be extremely polite, so it is hard for him to be firm with people outside his immediate family. He makes his wife do the dirty work of telling people no or other things they don't want to hear because he can barely bring himself to do it and it makes him upset. She is protective of him and it doesn't bother her that much to have people mad at her if she knows she's in the right, so she does it for him because she loves him. She looks like a bitch and he looks like a saint, but IMO, they are both saints.
 

INTJMom

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Joined
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Messages
5,413
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Sometimes people with very passive partners get a bad rap for being domineering when really they are just doing what needs to be done because their partner will not do it. Both partners can come to resent the situation, but find it difficult to correct the pattern. INTPs are capable of being extremely passive, so I would think twice before assigning all the blame on this guy's wife.

Also, they may not really even be particularly dissatisfied. It can be very difficult to gage a couple's dynamic from the outside. My mother, for instance, thought for years that my husband was dominating me. While his mother thought I was controlling my husband (possibly through freaky sex, but she's not sure).

The truth: who knows? It's complicated. He works his rear off while I stay home. I handle all the money. I answer all the phone calls. He has no social life and goes nowhere except for work without me. He calls himself my 'whipped cracker.' He only half listens to me a fair minority of the time.

Am I dominating him? You try to get the man to answer the phone, lol. I've tried to get him to help manage the money. He has no interest in managing any money outside of the 401K. He tells me to give him $20/week and he wants me to pay the bills and make sure there is food to eat. Other than that, he doesn't care and wants to be left alone. He hates to drive, he has me take him where he wants to go. I chatter a lot and when I'm upset, I keep talking about the thing that upset me over and over. I need to do that to get it out of my system, but I don't expect him to actively listen once he has the gist of the situation.

My real secret of 'controlling' him? I handle the things I can handle myself myself. I try not to nag him. I ask for what I want, but I am careful about cashing in my chips. I'm sweet to him and there is the sex, but I'm not really much of a freak.

How does he dominate me? He's stubborn as all get out. You simply cannot make the man do something he does not want to do. Outside of that, he is sweet to me. He has never raised his voice at me in anger. He acts like I'm beautiful and he can't get enough of me. He makes me laugh all the time. Basically I adore him like I was his pet dog and I love to please him.

People think my brother's wife is a dominating control freak, but what they don't realize is that my brother was raised to be extremely polite, so it is hard for him to be firm with people outside his immediate family. He makes his wife do the dirty work of telling people no or other things they don't want to hear because he can barely bring himself to do it and it makes him upset. She is protective of him and it doesn't bother her that much to have people mad at her if she knows she's in the right, so she does it for him because she loves him. She looks like a bitch and he looks like a saint, but IMO, they are both saints.
That's exactly it.
Every couple has their own dance,
and it's not for us to judge.
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Sometimes people with very passive partners get a bad rap for being domineering when really they are just doing what needs to be done because their partner will not do it. Both partners can come to resent the situation, but find it difficult to correct the pattern. INTPs are capable of being extremely passive, so I would think twice before assigning all the blame on this guy's wife.

Also, they may not really even be particularly dissatisfied. It can be very difficult to gage a couple's dynamic from the outside. My mother, for instance, thought for years that my husband was dominating me. While his mother thought I was controlling my husband (possibly through freaky sex, but she's not sure).

The truth: who knows? It's complicated. He works his rear off while I stay home. I handle all the money. I answer all the phone calls. He has no social life and goes nowhere except for work without me. He calls himself my 'whipped cracker.' He only half listens to me a fair minority of the time.

Am I dominating him? You try to get the man to answer the phone, lol. I've tried to get him to help manage the money. He has no interest in managing any money outside of the 401K. He tells me to give him $20/week and he wants me to pay the bills and make sure there is food to eat. Other than that, he doesn't care and wants to be left alone. He hates to drive, he has me take him where he wants to go. I chatter a lot and when I'm upset, I keep talking about the thing that upset me over and over. I need to do that to get it out of my system, but I don't expect him to actively listen once he has the gist of the situation.

My real secret of 'controlling' him? I handle the things I can handle myself myself. I try not to nag him. I ask for what I want, but I am careful about cashing in my chips. I'm sweet to him and there is the sex, but I'm not really much of a freak.

How does he dominate me? He's stubborn as all get out. You simply cannot make the man do something he does not want to do. Outside of that, he is sweet to me. He has never raised his voice at me in anger. He acts like I'm beautiful and he can't get enough of me. He makes me laugh all the time. Basically I adore him like I was his pet dog and I love to please him.

People think my brother's wife is a dominating control freak, but what they don't realize is that my brother was raised to be extremely polite, so it is hard for him to be firm with people outside his immediate family. He makes his wife do the dirty work of telling people no or other things they don't want to hear because he can barely bring himself to do it and it makes him upset. She is protective of him and it doesn't bother her that much to have people mad at her if she knows she's in the right, so she does it for him because she loves him. She looks like a bitch and he looks like a saint, but IMO, they are both saints.

Like I said, some women prefer to have their husbands be their personal assistants, rather than partners. It makes them feel "safe".
 

cafe

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Messages
9,827
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Like I said, some women prefer to have their husbands be their personal assistants, rather than partners. It makes them feel "safe".
So do many men not do the same thing or do you consider it acceptable when it's a man doing it instead of a woman?
 

Jae Rae

Free-Rangin' Librarian
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
979
MBTI Type
INFJ
That's exactly it.
Every couple has their own dance,
and it's not for us to judge.


This reminds me of another quote:

"every marriage is both better and worse than anyone else knows."

Sometimes a person needs a release by talking about something mean
his/her partner did, but you might not hear about what the partner
did that was sweet or kind.

If actual pain is reported, it might be necessary to step in, but I think
that's a rare situation. The most respectful and helpful route is not
to offer your judgment unless directly asked for it, and even then, take care.

I listen to a lot of friends about their marital woes, and I assume
I'm only hearing part of the story. I'm always surprised (and sad)
if I learn they've decided to divorce. I decide for myself if I could
put up with this trait in exchange for that by watching
them together, not by what's said as a complaint.

In terms of family dynamics, in-laws have a bad reputation that's
often deserved for blaming their son- or daughter-in-law for
seeming inequities and problems in the marital relationship.

My sister and parents thought my husband wasn't the right
partner for me when they met him. Turns out they were wrong.

Jae Rae
 

cafe

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Sometimes a person needs a release by talking about something mean
his/her partner did, but you might not hear about what the partner
did that was sweet or kind.
Also, nobody wants to hear about how happy you are with your spouse. People bond by commiserating with one another, not, apparently, by rejoicing in the good fortune of one another. Most people learn their lesson and shut up about the good stuff.
 
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