• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Why do INTJ/ENTJ's get such a bad rap?

Uytuun

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,633
MBTI Type
nnnn
OK .. I can so see that i am trying to resolve this conflict now ...

There must be one thing an INTJ/ENTJ is good at?????







Something, anything? :sleeping: .. Me neither ... Never mind, lets dance :party2:

Perceived insensitivity is indeed not a criterion that has the power to override what I consider needs to be said, so:

Time to take your bitterness elsewhere.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Perceived insensitivity is indeed not a criterion that has the power to override what I consider needs to be said, so:

Time to take your bitterness elsewhere.

WFT?????

Sorry you perceived me to be insensitive .. I was just having a joke, make it more light hearted, if you are unable to see my humour, then so be it.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Thank you Antisocial for that .. Wow, That was a tad to close to home. I feel like someone is sitting on my chest. :)

I think that something must be said before I get to my point.
People with P usually say that they must be flexible and that everything would be lost without that. And they see people with high J as short sided idiots. That can be true in case when you have high S and you are very J. But if you have strong N and strong T strong J can be controlled by those two and become very useful.
In case that this is not true ENTJ and INTJ would never be what they are.


Here is how NTJ is thinking.

Instead to prepare for bad scenarios and living in fear they create plans to get an advantage in their life. After that when they get to place where they want to be they use their good position to get even better position.
While P just waits his big problem and hopes that he/she will be ready.
But he will probably lose because he/she stayed at first level where you are most vulnerable which is because you have small amount of options and there is no place to flee.
Once you get to higher position and have 10 000$ per month many basic problems will not even be coming your way.



What this means in real life?

It means that if you stash too many things which could help you in some situations the only thing that is likely is that you will not be able to find them among all those things, at least not in advised time period and you will lose large amount of time on cleaning and repairing those things.


How to organize?
Put things that you need in places where you can easily grab them.
Things which you need less put somewhere where they will be out of the way for everyday operations.
Things you probably will not need soon can be thrown in garbage because if you are going to need them one day they will be broken or obsolete.
Make sure that all things have their own place and that you put them in that place after use.


On the big picture you must determine what you want from life. After you do that try to find best way to get there. Also having a master plan for your life is really not that bad because if you have it you will have standard by which you can judge things. (science and philosophy are exceptions)
For example you must see what jobs you can do whit your education which leads to question "Is this level of education enough for me".
But I don’t have any data here so I can’t help you much in this part.


I see you are strong in verbal intelligence my advice is to use it whenever you can get something from it.
For example I am so J that I plan my conversations. When I know that I will have to argue I scan my database about any information about my “enemy” and what things he/she will likely to support and what are the flaws of that thing or process.
Also you could create list of 15-20 simple jokes and learn them for cases when you feel stuck in social situation.
I also make list of things/facts I want to say to other person and then try to mention them in conversation (this can help you a lot in life).


Don’t hesitate to write facts and information if they are complex.
Try to be aware of others peoples goals, hopes and fears.
If you work in the place where you can be easily accused for something try to see it coming and prepare your defense. By this I mean write it on the paper and try to learn as much facts from it as you can. But try to be short because your point must be represented in small amount of time. And if you know topic well you can turn accusation against the accuser who could be caught by surprise with your actions.
Don’t be too nice because people will start to use you in many ways. And there is good chance that INFP can be too friendly in working environment.
Don’t be too defensive when you know that you are wrong.
Try to be right hand of your boss. By doing this you will probably be first candidate for the promotion and that is what you want.

Also when you start to think this way any job will be much more interesting. Because tensions will be higher what means more excitement.

I know that this advices from INFP perspective can be summarized as “become an Antichrist” but this is exactly what you want.



Strong intrapersonal intelligence can help you a lot to realize what you can and what you can’t do. This is possibly your greatest strength.



What many people don’t realize is that there is entire spectrum of small things that can make a HUGE difference.

Having proper body mass is just one of the factors but it is very important in business environment because it dictates how others see you.
But even more important is that you can’t have a good sleep if you are above 20% of your ideal body mass. When you sleep make sure that bed is not too soft.
If it is too soft your back will hurt and you will not be fresh in the morning what can be fatal in many ways.

Don’t be an addict of any legal things that stimulate your senses.
For example I don’t drink coffee at all and I don’t use any pills unless I am sick.
Human body has chemical composition and every time you add something like this you are destroying the balance in your body.
And that can reduce many things (like mental ability) through the rest of the day/life.
I don’t use any of those things but I have more energy and stronger mental abilities then people around me and I think it is just because I avoid those things.
Plus it will save you much time, much money, time you need to buy them and prepare them and time to wash the dishes after coffee.
All of this can take about 1h per day for an average person.
But if you multiply that by 365 you will get 2 weeks of totally free time!!!!
Congratulations, you have just bought yourself time to rest for real during the day and to make your future plans. Same works for smoking, alcohol, drugs/pills.
Try to use same way of thinking about many small things in your life and suddenly you will have a lot of free time.


It is very important to have 3 major meals and 2 minor meals during the day. This will cover your hunger over the day.
Ideal is about 5% sweets , 25% proteins , 30% fruit and vegetables , 40% bread , pasta …
What people don’t get is that their body is chemical factory which can’t work properly if “raw materials” that come in, suck.
This sounds funny but stuff like this could be just what you need to get advantage over others (read: be more productive).
In case you know that ahead of you is situation that needs quick thinking like
exam or meeting try to eat some small amount of meat or cheese before it because that will wake you up.

And don’t think like this “you can do it, you can do it “.
What you need is “Just do it and continue to next task”.

I would advise you to find someone for playing games like chess, risk and monopoly because that will boost your thinking and ability to make plans. Plus you will get used to offense as a way of thinking.
 

Uytuun

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,633
MBTI Type
nnnn
WFT?????

Sorry you perceived me to be insensitive .. I was just having a joke, make it more light hearted, if you are unable to see my humour, then so be it.

I was calling myself potentially insensitive.

Just re-read your reactions in this thread and put them in your context. Don't delude yourself.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I was calling myself insensitive.

Just re-read your reactions in this thread and put them in your context. Don't delude yourself.

lmao ... You have me all figured out don't you!!!

I don't proclaim to know everything about life/myself etc .. It's all one big learning curve and i am taking little steps each day.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You NTJs are odd with your "planning" processes, multiple plans for many possible outcomes. That's just an odd way of doing things for me, I usually just take things as they come to me. My plan is to have no plan, and then do the best possible thing in the moment. Your process seems efficient enough though. ;)
 

juggernaut

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,009
You NTJs are odd with your "planning" processes, multiple plans for many possible outcomes. That's just an odd way of doing things for me, I usually just take things as they come to me. My plan is to have no plan, and then do the best possible thing in the moment. Your process seems efficient enough though. ;)

I know it makes us look rigid, but for me it's the best way to ensure flexibility. When I look at something that I need, or want, to do I try to envision all the steps required in getting that thing done. As I'm doing this mental outline I try to anticipate all the places where problems/opportunities might arise along the way and plan for that. In the end I have a very large mental tree to work from that allows me to make adjustments as I go. That, to me, is the epitome of flexibility.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
1,992
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w9
I know it makes us look rigid, but for me it's the best way to ensure flexibility. When I look at something that I need, or want, to do I try to envision all the steps required in getting that thing done. As I'm doing this mental outline I try to anticipate all the places where problems/opportunities might arise along the way and plan for that. In the end I have a very large mental tree to work from that allows me to make adjustments as I go. That, to me, is the epitome of flexibility.

That, and it's good sense.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I know it makes us look rigid, but for me it's the best way to ensure flexibility. When I look at something that I need, or want, to do I try to envision all the steps required in getting that thing done. As I'm doing this mental outline I try to anticipate all the places where problems/opportunities might arise along the way and plan for that. In the end I have a very large mental tree to work from that allows me to make adjustments as I go. That, to me, is the epitome of flexibility.

That's a good way of putting it I'd say. I was in no way inferring that you guys were inflexible, but you know that. :D

I wouldn't say I have no plan, I do have a vision of what I want to accomplish, but I don't formulate what I want to do in advance unless I perceive that I need to (things that may not be wise to make on the spot decisions about I have a plan for, but other than that I honestly don't care, since things turn out ok).

J/P differences are very interesting, I decided to post that to get some more clarity in my mind about the dichotomy.
 

professor goodstain

New member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
1,785
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7~7
If you have several plans, one is bound to work out. Or maybe a little piece of each of those plans does and then some grand plan has gone as planned.

Would you agree that too much plans leave out room to explore an angle that could have enhanced the original plans so much that a great potential could have been overlooked? Even when relying on many contingencies? To an extent, having expectations can lead to loss of adaptability.
 

juggernaut

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,009
Would you agree that too much plans leave out room to explore an angle that could have enhanced the original plans so much that a great potential could have been overlooked? Even when relying on many contingencies? To an extent, having expectations can lead to loss of adaptability.

Not if you plan for it.:nerd:

Just kidding!

Of course there are times when opportunities may get missed, but I don't think it really diminishes adaptability. As I said it's a mental schematic that I defer to when figuring out what I want/need to do. If things change, a new map will be drawn up. I'm not all opposed to revision. Lord knows I've had to do it more times that I can count over the course of my life. I guess you could say the plans are always tentative in that sense. I know there are unknown variables that arise in every situation. I just like to try to plan for that as well. I try to leave room for "x" but hope it won't come up. If it does, then it's back to the drawing board to devise a new plan.

(I spend A LOT of time with Ps so this happens a lot)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,830
Things never go as planned.

Well if you are P then I can understand your claim.
Since you dont know how it is like to be strong (NT)J and how we operate.



I am writting a description of the way how NTJ think so maybe that will clear things up. I will take my time since I want to get it right and I am quite curious if NTJs will be able to relate.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Things never go as planned.
I found that with too detailed plans which specified what to do, when to do and how to do.

Plan-making is a skill that includes variables with the constants, risks with the certainties, knowns with the unknowns.. and makes it able to manage complexities completely beyond anything someone could just improvise in a moment.

A good plan in any significant matter involving uncertain parts will most likely rely on some improvisational skills in the right places. But, the whole of something very complex is rarely in the domain of anyone's improvisational skills.. which is why it has to be planned. It doesn't lessen the merit of improvisation. They are just the two parts of the whole.

Why do NTP assume rigid and useless plans anyway? Makes for an easier target to criticize.
 

hokie912

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
271
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I really like INTJ's actually, although I wouldn't want to be one (because most other people dislike them).

They can be very blunt, even weird in some of the things they say, but once they show you the "key" to that Fi-ish perspective they have, you'll go back over everything they've ever done or said, and you'll see little hints of their feelings at almost every turn. You'll really never see them quite the same way again. It's like a "Twilight Zone" episode. The weirdest part is that once I see it, I perceive most of they say as being fairly nice, even if it would be considered blunt/rude by most people... because their intentions are usually a lot nicer than how their communication comes across, although they don't like to admit this for fear of looking weak/incompetent. I would say that if they did do anything cruel, I think it would probably be because it didn't quite "hit home" for them in such a way that they understood the severity of it.

Just wanted to agree with this! I can somehow see through the NT bluntness to the introverted feeling very quickly with NTJs. Is it an Ni thing? Things they say that other people (SJs in particular) perceive as rude don't read that way to me at all.

My one particular hangup with INTJs is that I feel all Fe-compelled to form closer relationships with them than they seem programmed for. When you can follow one another's thoughts exactly and talk about anything, it makes sense to me to want to go from casual acquaintances to friends. Whether it's shyness on both sides or a lack of interest on their part, bridging that gap is difficult without things being completely awkward. I ask a lot of questions to get to know someone but tend not to talk about myself unless asked -- and INTJs I've known generally answer but don't ask about me. It seems like the "not caring to share with other people" thing is mostly a front, since sometimes an INTJ acquaintance of mine is clearly bursting to talk to me about our mutual interests. It's just a trend I've noticed lately of great, stimulating conversation but no feeling of emotional closeness. It's easier to know where you stand with ENTJs than their I counterparts.

Love NTJs, though. They're interesting, logical and fair, and, once you see it, have a really impressive depth of feeling.
 
Last edited:

Heart&Brain

New member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
217
MBTI Type
ENFP
Interesting, I have experienced being very curious about an INTJ-male and asking him personal stuff that he'll respond to. But he doesn't ask back as I would expect. Thought it was lack of interest, but maybe it is some issue of communication between different types.

When I ask and talk about personal things I'm almost always in a process of personal bonding also. That is the main reason that the factual answers are of interest: I'm basically inviting him to play with me rather than inform me.

I imagine it like throwing him a ball of yarn that I want him to toss it back to me and then me to him etc., so we together can 'weave' a unique and intricate pattern of lines of knowledge and connections between us.

But it seems like he would regard the invitation as he would regard filling out a questionaire-form. Dutifully trying to be concise and making an honest effort, thereby showing care, openness and goodwill. And thus getting somewhat frustrated and cross if I'm not satisfyed or begin to poke at him for holding back or not giving himself.

But it probably makes perfect sense from his point of view: he wouldn't ask a questionnaire-form how it felt about the matter or if it has had similar experiences or how it feels about something entirely different than what the questionnaire has defined as the line of investigation, would he?

And: if I keep asking more questions or challenge his carefully crafted answers, it would for him probably amount to me saying he has answered insufficient and that he is not appreciated or able to satisfy me?

If that's true, then we would have opposite measurements as to the success of the exchange:
NTJ: if it is short and quickly exhausts the subject at hand he'll have 'passed' the test with satifactory answers and I'll like him. If it continues he will be puzzled where he goes wrong?
ENFP: if we keep catching the ball of yarn and throw it back, the more beautiful and interesting will the mutual weaving become, so a conversationstopper is a huge disappointment meaning he doesn't care to play with me.

I can appreciate the goodwill expressed in answering what people say they want to know and can see how NTJ's could think that they must have satisfied what they think was the need: to know the exact state of affairs regarding this or that issue.

But is there any way to engage them in the different game, the mutual bonding through tossing balls of coloured yarn back and forth?

It seems a bit too forthright to explain the rules up front, like: and when you have answered this, you are supposed to ask me something about my self and when I have answered you are supposed to do something with it, comment it, appreciate it or relate it to yourself. And then you get to start the next topic by throwing a new colour to me. Okay, ready to begin?

Doesn't really sound like a convincing way to get them to play with us, does it?
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
My one particular hangup with INTJs is that I feel all Fe-compelled to form closer relationships with them than they seem programmed for. When you can follow one another's thoughts exactly and talk about anything, it makes sense to me to want to go from casual acquaintances to friends. Whether it's shyness on both sides or a lack of interest on their part, bridging that gap is difficult without things being completely awkward. I ask a lot of questions to get to know someone but tend not to talk about myself unless asked -- and INTJs I've known generally answer but don't ask about me. .

For some reason I can click with INTJs IRL quite well. I think I just blast them with Ne-Fi insanity-like a little silly, hyper puppy. They just stop and stare and then they smile. I think I mostly defy logical explanantion so they grope for a few seconds looking for the right tool-grope-grope-aha, there is a tertiary Fi that might do the trick.

Interesting, I have experienced being very curious about an INTJ-male and asking him personal stuff that he'll respond to. But he doesn't ask back as I would expect. Thought it was lack of interest, but maybe it is some issue of communication between different types.

When I ask and talk about personal things I'm almost always in a process of personal bonding also. That is the main reason that the factual answers are of interest: I'm basically inviting him to play with me rather than inform me.

I imagine it like throwing him a ball of yarn that I want him to toss it back to me and then me to him etc., so we together can 'weave' a unique and intricate pattern of lines of knowledge and connections between us.

But it seems like he would regard the invitation as he would regard filling out a questionaire-form. Dutifully trying to be concise and making an honest effort, thereby showing care, openness and goodwill. And thus getting somewhat frustrated and cross if I'm not satisfyed or begin to poke at him for holding back or not giving himself.

But is there any way to engage them in the different game, the mutual bonding through tossing balls of coloured yarn back and forth?

Doesn't really sound like a convincing way to get them to play with us, does it?

I dont ususally start my interactions with these guys in a factual manner. To do so invites more facts perhaps. This prompts some of them to "jabber" endlessly on the particular topic. Typically I employ the "explode and run" tactic if I need factual content. I burst in the door, shoot them with happy puppy rays of sunshine, ask questions, random questions, then wonder off in midconversation. For most anybody else they would consider it rude but they just expect it from me.

For longer conversations, I just plop down, again, hooking into the tertiary Fi and just chatter. I ask them about thier families, thier homes, what they care about. Fi has the magic here I think. I will sit and listen to them teach me about whatever it is that they like, and normally it is really facsinating. REALLY, no lies, it is.

I never really planned much of the above, and I do adore/love each of them very much. Fi is like that. If you pull it out and offer it to another, then you feel that love too. If you hurt them, you feel that hurt back on you like a mirror, so I could never hurt my INTJs as they are like little sweet kids.
 

Heart&Brain

New member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
217
MBTI Type
ENFP
For some reason I can click with INTJs IRL quite well. I think I just blast them with Ne-Fi insanity-like a little silly, hyper puppy. They just stop and stare and then they smile. I think I mostly defy logical explanantion so they grope for a few seconds looking for the right tool-grope-grope-aha, there is a tertiary Fi that might do the trick.



I dont ususally start my interactions with these guys in a factual manner. To do so invites more facts perhaps. This prompts some of them to "jabber" endlessly on the particular topic. Typically I employ the "explode and run" tactic if I need factual content. I burst in the door, shoot them with happy puppy rays of sunshine, ask questions, random questions, then wonder off in midconversation. For most anybody else they would consider it rude but they just expect it from me.

For longer conversations, I just plop down, again, hooking into the tertiary Fi and just chatter. I ask them about thier families, thier homes, what they care about. Fi has the magic here I think. I will sit and listen to them teach me about whatever it is that they like, and normally it is really facsinating. REALLY, no lies, it is.

I never really planned much of the above, and I do adore/love each of them very much. Fi is like that. If you pull it out and offer it to another, then you feel that love too. If you hurt them, you feel that hurt back on you like a mirror, so I could never hurt my INTJs as they are like little sweet kids.

I love your description, happy puppy! On a good day I can feel something like this happening too IRL, and it is a wonderful feeling of freedom to be yourself in a way that also makes the connection to others brighter and more intense. But I haven't figured out how to engage Fi online (without appearing totally random I mean. I'm 40 and hold a ph.d. in philosophy and very much enjoy my often unconventional intuitive visions to be taken serious now and again :D

But yeah, I kind of know how to wag my tail philosophically too... But with romantic interest on top of it and Fi and intimacy the whole thing starts confusing me, especially online where 93 % of my means of communication is missing... :shock:
 
Top