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  1. #91
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I know it makes us look rigid, but for me it's the best way to ensure flexibility. When I look at something that I need, or want, to do I try to envision all the steps required in getting that thing done. As I'm doing this mental outline I try to anticipate all the places where problems/opportunities might arise along the way and plan for that. In the end I have a very large mental tree to work from that allows me to make adjustments as I go. That, to me, is the epitome of flexibility.
    That, and it's good sense.

  2. #92
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I know it makes us look rigid, but for me it's the best way to ensure flexibility. When I look at something that I need, or want, to do I try to envision all the steps required in getting that thing done. As I'm doing this mental outline I try to anticipate all the places where problems/opportunities might arise along the way and plan for that. In the end I have a very large mental tree to work from that allows me to make adjustments as I go. That, to me, is the epitome of flexibility.
    That's a good way of putting it I'd say. I was in no way inferring that you guys were inflexible, but you know that.

    I wouldn't say I have no plan, I do have a vision of what I want to accomplish, but I don't formulate what I want to do in advance unless I perceive that I need to (things that may not be wise to make on the spot decisions about I have a plan for, but other than that I honestly don't care, since things turn out ok).

    J/P differences are very interesting, I decided to post that to get some more clarity in my mind about the dichotomy.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #93
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    If you have several plans, one is bound to work out. Or maybe a little piece of each of those plans does and then some grand plan has gone as planned.
    Would you agree that too much plans leave out room to explore an angle that could have enhanced the original plans so much that a great potential could have been overlooked? Even when relying on many contingencies? To an extent, having expectations can lead to loss of adaptability.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Would you agree that too much plans leave out room to explore an angle that could have enhanced the original plans so much that a great potential could have been overlooked? Even when relying on many contingencies? To an extent, having expectations can lead to loss of adaptability.
    Not if you plan for it.

    Just kidding!

    Of course there are times when opportunities may get missed, but I don't think it really diminishes adaptability. As I said it's a mental schematic that I defer to when figuring out what I want/need to do. If things change, a new map will be drawn up. I'm not all opposed to revision. Lord knows I've had to do it more times that I can count over the course of my life. I guess you could say the plans are always tentative in that sense. I know there are unknown variables that arise in every situation. I just like to try to plan for that as well. I try to leave room for "x" but hope it won't come up. If it does, then it's back to the drawing board to devise a new plan.

    (I spend A LOT of time with Ps so this happens a lot)

  5. #95
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Things never go as planned.

    Well if you are P then I can understand your claim.
    Since you dont know how it is like to be strong (NT)J and how we operate.



    I am writting a description of the way how NTJ think so maybe that will clear things up. I will take my time since I want to get it right and I am quite curious if NTJs will be able to relate.

  6. #96
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Things never go as planned.
    I found that with too detailed plans which specified what to do, when to do and how to do.

    Plan-making is a skill that includes variables with the constants, risks with the certainties, knowns with the unknowns.. and makes it able to manage complexities completely beyond anything someone could just improvise in a moment.

    A good plan in any significant matter involving uncertain parts will most likely rely on some improvisational skills in the right places. But, the whole of something very complex is rarely in the domain of anyone's improvisational skills.. which is why it has to be planned. It doesn't lessen the merit of improvisation. They are just the two parts of the whole.

    Why do NTP assume rigid and useless plans anyway? Makes for an easier target to criticize.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #97
    Senior Member hokie912's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I really like INTJ's actually, although I wouldn't want to be one (because most other people dislike them).

    They can be very blunt, even weird in some of the things they say, but once they show you the "key" to that Fi-ish perspective they have, you'll go back over everything they've ever done or said, and you'll see little hints of their feelings at almost every turn. You'll really never see them quite the same way again. It's like a "Twilight Zone" episode. The weirdest part is that once I see it, I perceive most of they say as being fairly nice, even if it would be considered blunt/rude by most people... because their intentions are usually a lot nicer than how their communication comes across, although they don't like to admit this for fear of looking weak/incompetent. I would say that if they did do anything cruel, I think it would probably be because it didn't quite "hit home" for them in such a way that they understood the severity of it.
    Just wanted to agree with this! I can somehow see through the NT bluntness to the introverted feeling very quickly with NTJs. Is it an Ni thing? Things they say that other people (SJs in particular) perceive as rude don't read that way to me at all.

    My one particular hangup with INTJs is that I feel all Fe-compelled to form closer relationships with them than they seem programmed for. When you can follow one another's thoughts exactly and talk about anything, it makes sense to me to want to go from casual acquaintances to friends. Whether it's shyness on both sides or a lack of interest on their part, bridging that gap is difficult without things being completely awkward. I ask a lot of questions to get to know someone but tend not to talk about myself unless asked -- and INTJs I've known generally answer but don't ask about me. It seems like the "not caring to share with other people" thing is mostly a front, since sometimes an INTJ acquaintance of mine is clearly bursting to talk to me about our mutual interests. It's just a trend I've noticed lately of great, stimulating conversation but no feeling of emotional closeness. It's easier to know where you stand with ENTJs than their I counterparts.

    Love NTJs, though. They're interesting, logical and fair, and, once you see it, have a really impressive depth of feeling.
    Last edited by hokie912; 05-21-2009 at 01:46 AM.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Interesting, I have experienced being very curious about an INTJ-male and asking him personal stuff that he'll respond to. But he doesn't ask back as I would expect. Thought it was lack of interest, but maybe it is some issue of communication between different types.

    When I ask and talk about personal things I'm almost always in a process of personal bonding also. That is the main reason that the factual answers are of interest: I'm basically inviting him to play with me rather than inform me.

    I imagine it like throwing him a ball of yarn that I want him to toss it back to me and then me to him etc., so we together can 'weave' a unique and intricate pattern of lines of knowledge and connections between us.

    But it seems like he would regard the invitation as he would regard filling out a questionaire-form. Dutifully trying to be concise and making an honest effort, thereby showing care, openness and goodwill. And thus getting somewhat frustrated and cross if I'm not satisfyed or begin to poke at him for holding back or not giving himself.

    But it probably makes perfect sense from his point of view: he wouldn't ask a questionnaire-form how it felt about the matter or if it has had similar experiences or how it feels about something entirely different than what the questionnaire has defined as the line of investigation, would he?

    And: if I keep asking more questions or challenge his carefully crafted answers, it would for him probably amount to me saying he has answered insufficient and that he is not appreciated or able to satisfy me?

    If that's true, then we would have opposite measurements as to the success of the exchange:
    NTJ: if it is short and quickly exhausts the subject at hand he'll have 'passed' the test with satifactory answers and I'll like him. If it continues he will be puzzled where he goes wrong?
    ENFP: if we keep catching the ball of yarn and throw it back, the more beautiful and interesting will the mutual weaving become, so a conversationstopper is a huge disappointment meaning he doesn't care to play with me.

    I can appreciate the goodwill expressed in answering what people say they want to know and can see how NTJ's could think that they must have satisfied what they think was the need: to know the exact state of affairs regarding this or that issue.

    But is there any way to engage them in the different game, the mutual bonding through tossing balls of coloured yarn back and forth?

    It seems a bit too forthright to explain the rules up front, like: and when you have answered this, you are supposed to ask me something about my self and when I have answered you are supposed to do something with it, comment it, appreciate it or relate it to yourself. And then you get to start the next topic by throwing a new colour to me. Okay, ready to begin?

    Doesn't really sound like a convincing way to get them to play with us, does it?

  9. #99
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokie912 View Post
    My one particular hangup with INTJs is that I feel all Fe-compelled to form closer relationships with them than they seem programmed for. When you can follow one another's thoughts exactly and talk about anything, it makes sense to me to want to go from casual acquaintances to friends. Whether it's shyness on both sides or a lack of interest on their part, bridging that gap is difficult without things being completely awkward. I ask a lot of questions to get to know someone but tend not to talk about myself unless asked -- and INTJs I've known generally answer but don't ask about me. .
    For some reason I can click with INTJs IRL quite well. I think I just blast them with Ne-Fi insanity-like a little silly, hyper puppy. They just stop and stare and then they smile. I think I mostly defy logical explanantion so they grope for a few seconds looking for the right tool-grope-grope-aha, there is a tertiary Fi that might do the trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Interesting, I have experienced being very curious about an INTJ-male and asking him personal stuff that he'll respond to. But he doesn't ask back as I would expect. Thought it was lack of interest, but maybe it is some issue of communication between different types.

    When I ask and talk about personal things I'm almost always in a process of personal bonding also. That is the main reason that the factual answers are of interest: I'm basically inviting him to play with me rather than inform me.

    I imagine it like throwing him a ball of yarn that I want him to toss it back to me and then me to him etc., so we together can 'weave' a unique and intricate pattern of lines of knowledge and connections between us.

    But it seems like he would regard the invitation as he would regard filling out a questionaire-form. Dutifully trying to be concise and making an honest effort, thereby showing care, openness and goodwill. And thus getting somewhat frustrated and cross if I'm not satisfyed or begin to poke at him for holding back or not giving himself.

    But is there any way to engage them in the different game, the mutual bonding through tossing balls of coloured yarn back and forth?

    Doesn't really sound like a convincing way to get them to play with us, does it?
    I dont ususally start my interactions with these guys in a factual manner. To do so invites more facts perhaps. This prompts some of them to "jabber" endlessly on the particular topic. Typically I employ the "explode and run" tactic if I need factual content. I burst in the door, shoot them with happy puppy rays of sunshine, ask questions, random questions, then wonder off in midconversation. For most anybody else they would consider it rude but they just expect it from me.

    For longer conversations, I just plop down, again, hooking into the tertiary Fi and just chatter. I ask them about thier families, thier homes, what they care about. Fi has the magic here I think. I will sit and listen to them teach me about whatever it is that they like, and normally it is really facsinating. REALLY, no lies, it is.

    I never really planned much of the above, and I do adore/love each of them very much. Fi is like that. If you pull it out and offer it to another, then you feel that love too. If you hurt them, you feel that hurt back on you like a mirror, so I could never hurt my INTJs as they are like little sweet kids.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    For some reason I can click with INTJs IRL quite well. I think I just blast them with Ne-Fi insanity-like a little silly, hyper puppy. They just stop and stare and then they smile. I think I mostly defy logical explanantion so they grope for a few seconds looking for the right tool-grope-grope-aha, there is a tertiary Fi that might do the trick.



    I dont ususally start my interactions with these guys in a factual manner. To do so invites more facts perhaps. This prompts some of them to "jabber" endlessly on the particular topic. Typically I employ the "explode and run" tactic if I need factual content. I burst in the door, shoot them with happy puppy rays of sunshine, ask questions, random questions, then wonder off in midconversation. For most anybody else they would consider it rude but they just expect it from me.

    For longer conversations, I just plop down, again, hooking into the tertiary Fi and just chatter. I ask them about thier families, thier homes, what they care about. Fi has the magic here I think. I will sit and listen to them teach me about whatever it is that they like, and normally it is really facsinating. REALLY, no lies, it is.

    I never really planned much of the above, and I do adore/love each of them very much. Fi is like that. If you pull it out and offer it to another, then you feel that love too. If you hurt them, you feel that hurt back on you like a mirror, so I could never hurt my INTJs as they are like little sweet kids.
    I love your description, happy puppy! On a good day I can feel something like this happening too IRL, and it is a wonderful feeling of freedom to be yourself in a way that also makes the connection to others brighter and more intense. But I haven't figured out how to engage Fi online (without appearing totally random I mean. I'm 40 and hold a ph.d. in philosophy and very much enjoy my often unconventional intuitive visions to be taken serious now and again

    But yeah, I kind of know how to wag my tail philosophically too... But with romantic interest on top of it and Fi and intimacy the whole thing starts confusing me, especially online where 93 % of my means of communication is missing...

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