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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Fe/Te Nudges, Ti/Fi alignments: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Can you provide an example of the above? Would this be like the baby ENTPs who go around pushing buttons perhaps? There was a great deal of that last year...I guess I never realized the underlying motive was to destabilize others. From my perspective emotional destablization of others makes no sense at all. If the point of a discussion is to come closer to an objective notion of truth, it makes no sense to evoke emotional responses intentionally as then the feedback received on the objective idea is more or less gibberish.

    What I have noticed more this year was a more pervasive trend towards more subtle personal attacks such as "If you believe that you must be [insert insult]". Rather than discuss the actual idea being proposed and have a back and forth discussion of facts/ideas about the topic under discussion, the whole convo would shift to a discussion of individuals having flawed characters. It was really quite odd and totally irrational to observe.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think Orobas that that is the equivalent of Te destabilizing a person's idea. By making the person feel destabilized, maybe the thinking on his part was to see what comes out then - does the argument or stance hold together even when the person gets emotional? What's left? Don't know...
    I was chatting with Fidelia in a thread in the bonfire and my original answer in another quote to Fidelia was actually incorrect, so I wanted to explore how others feel/think Fe and Te can be used to nudge others either to change Fe or Te objective judgments, or actually go deeper and modify the Ti and Fi subjective principles of another person.


    Pattern 1:Te/Fe:

    Te and Fe communicative nudges seem to be very direct and even blunt. It seems okay to both-as the Te and Fe is external to the ego perhaps?

    Pattern 2: Fi/Ti:
    Fi and Ti suggestions seem to be much more roundabout, more suggestive of exposing those subjective principles to another, then gently pointing out areas of disagreement. It is very subtle, rather indirect and never overtly states that the other is WRONG, rather seeks areas of nonagreement, then tries to gently realign the other person, while simultaneously cross-checking one's own Ti/Fi for possible errors. Maybe they really are correct.

    Pattern 3: Nudging external with Te/Fe to realign anothers Fi/Ti through the other's Te/Fe:
    It also seems that a Te/Fe dom/aux will directly state Fe/Te judgments that highlight the incorrectness of another person's Fe/Te judgment-with the result being that the person goes back and spends time reassessing the internal Ti/Fi principles that underlay the Fe/Te judgment. This reassesment is done quietly, alone given it is an introverted function.

    This may be what Fidelia and I were chatting about above...Fidelia seems to be correct.

    Pattern 4: An Fi/Ti aux/dom principle which gets extroverted as Te/Fe to go through another's Te/Fe to realign their Fi/Ti principles:
    So I guess you could also have a pattern where this happens as well. The best example I can come up with is the enfp bitchslap but perhaps it is seen other places? Perhaps it is something seen mostly in Ti/Fi auxs and terts?

    Miscommunication:
    So I could see miscommunication across the Te-Fi/Fe-Ti boundary as we each try and follow our natural communication techniques above.

    The further away from us the other person is wrt cognitive function order, the more of a train wreck might be created. Also, I can see the Fe/Fe boundary being worse than then Te/Ti boundary, given that while values arent emotions-they can evoke an emotional defense response when stepped upon.

    As a communication pattern gets more complex with more steps-it seems there will be much greater risks of confusion. So maybe patterns 1 and 2 might annoy us if used from someone across the Te/Fe boundary, pattern 3 would result in hurt egos, but pattern 4 would result in a total lack of comprehension because what they are doing makes no sense at all?

    So I dunno if any of this is correct or not but I wanted to start the thread and it least see it the patterns seem familiar to others. If some of the above sounds too certain please ignore the certainty and feel free to question or suggest other ways of looking at the problem. Just consider my thoughts above initial scribbles on a white board, observations but in no way conclusive at all.

  2. #2
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about pattern 1 as I don't use Fe or Te... but it seems right according to appearances.

    Oh, and I agree, Te seems to enjoy pushing buttons and destabalizing. I notice this with my ISTJ roommate a lot. He's hard to fight with. Tricky.

    Pattern 2 seems correct.

    As well as pattern 3. No objections.

    An example of pattern 4, where my Fi becomes extroverted (assuming that's what you meant) would be like: hmm... I'm recalling this one time where a friend of mine was in an outrage towards her boyfriend. We had other friends over as well, and we all eventually got involved. Not fun. Later, another friend from out of town dropped in on us. The outraged friend was still going off and creating a scene. I finally chimed in to the friend from out of town, and very loudly, said, "Well, aren't you just soooo happy you came over! Now you get to enjoy this wonderful time with us." The outraged friend got the point and left the room. She eventually came out an hour or so later to apologize for her behavior.

    I can't think of any instances where I utilized my feeling in an extroverted manner directly to piss off or point out a mistake of a Te. I'm definitely more roundabout. I want to think on this...
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    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  3. #3
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    The best I've got is yelling at my ISTJ roommate about him being inconsiderate. And telling an ENTJ that we're complete opposites and that was the reason why I had a hard time standing him.

    With an INTJ friend, debates came up quite often... but I'm trying to recall how I would react. He definitely liked to push my buttons... I think I would often just tell him to go home or just walk away from him. Seems like I may have bluntly told him he's being an ass once or twice.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    The best I've got is yelling at my ISTJ roommate about him being inconsiderate. And telling an ENTJ that we're complete opposites and that was the reason why I had a hard time standing him.

    With an INTJ friend, debates came up quite often... but I'm trying to recall how I would react. He definitely liked to push my buttons... I think I would often just tell him to go home or just walk away from him. Seems like I may have bluntly told him he's being an ass once or twice.
    ^^These both sound kinda like what you might see in an ENFP, but I expect that we do this much more often that most. Well the ESFPs do this as well. I suppose the pattern 4 could also be the "ENFP champion" approach as well.

    I think there is a HUGE amount of value when considering Fe/Te doms/auxs in distinguishing between pattern 1 and pattern 3. With a Te user-even my INTJ 3 yo-they give Te nudges all day long and there doesnt seem to be any desire to dominate or emotionally destablize-more just say "No, that's wrong" and then correct you. At first it is annoying, but once you learn to treat it objectively, they are mostly right, so meh, who cares. I suspect Fe doms/auxs are similar and in both cases it is actually a sign of caring for the other person or respecting them.

    Pattern 2 seems like normal convos between NXPs. The Fi users state "I" statements reflectively and the Ti users debate each other.

    Pattern 3 might be what Fidelia and some of the other folks in the thread were getting at about it seeming that sometimes people seek to emotionally or logically destablize another to point out issues with internal values. It isnt something I do myself, but I do know when I have been on the receiving end of Fe doms/auxs doing this to me, it is VERY bad. I feels like a direct attack on Fi-thus is Very very bad. I suspect if a strong Te user was having a convo with an Fe dom/aux and tried pattern 3-it might feel like a nasty attack on their Ti.

    Pattern 4 is just funny cause at this point, the convo will be so screwed up, we all think the others are just plain nuts. Imagine how an ENTP would interpret an ENFP doing this...."This crazy, bossy illogical person is trying to control me and tell me what actions I should or shouldnt do, based off nothing, and in the process is being hideously rude and offensive. Nutcase."

  5. #5
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I think I misunderstood. You mean to say (in my case) using inferior Te in order to realign a Te-dom/aux of another person?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't personally relate to pattern 3, but I wonder if that's why ENTPs act as they do.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    I think I misunderstood. You mean to say (in my case) using inferior Te in order to realign a Te-dom/aux of another person?
    Um, well I think if you actually make a demand for a change in another's actions-that IS Te in nature-even if the request is to be nicer or to stop doing something that offends your internal Fi sense. It is a weird way to externalize our Fi into an action plan of sorts...These patterns above are all very concrete, artificially so, so I can see the communications coming across as simply stating the offense without making a request for change as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't personally relate to pattern 3, but I wonder if that's why ENTPs act as they do.
    Maybe? It sounds a bit like what Arwann was discussing in the other thread. I saw an INFJ at INTJf also admit that he tests people this way sometimes-he asks them questions in a way to knock them off gaurd and make them answer quickly to expose what they really are thinking. So I guess you destablize Fe to get to Ti? Perhaps this is what the ENTPs were trying to do to the enfps last year-but it backfires as it pokes our Fi and they get bitchslapped in return.

    I spoke with the INTJ and he agreed with you-that sometimes one INTJ might point out logical flaws in another's logical argument-but in reality the logical flaw highlights an underlying flawed value that needs to be reconsidered. But the values themselves are pretty much off limits to direct comment-not really to provoke emo.... But I dont know if this is universal....I do notice the baby INTJs can be kinda arrogant at times and even a bit demenaing if they do not respect another person-almost like because they hold logic as a Fi value-by being a bit arrogant and demeaning to another-if that other was an INTJ who also held logic as a value-I dunno, you are kind of poking them to be better in their logic perhaps via an Fi jab? As always it seems a case of projecting their worldview onto the other person....

  8. #8
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Orobas, I find this thread very interesting, Would you take a stab at giving a real life scenarios? I don't want us to get too distracted by Ti parsing of the examples you provide, but I'm having a bit of a hard time following your four scenarios without a specific example to illustrate each one.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #9
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    um, okay. I suppose cutting and pasting convos from here would be in bad form. Let me work on some examples.

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    Orobas,

    In trying to figure out the finer points of what you're saying, I wound up trying to regurgitate your argument. I didn't really intend to do this at the beginning, but it sort of grew into a regurgitation, with my own additions, to what you were saying.

    Is this what kind of information you're trying to communicate? I'm looking for (in typical Te fashion) for the conceptual framework, then I fill in the details. Please take this in that way.

    How do Fe/Ti users and Fi/Te users communicate with each other?

    Pattern 1: Te talks to Fe or vice versa.
    Te and Fe both state things in a direct, even blunt manner. These are both externalized, straight forward, directing functions. When Te responds to Fe or Fe responds to Te, this is usually done with a conversational nudge.

    A Te or Fe conversational nudge occurs when a Te/Fe observation is shared in a blunt, matter-of-fact statement. For example, a Te-user might say to an Fe-user, “Well that doesn’t work, does it?” The Fe-user responds with their Fe via a reciprocal blunt, matter-of-fact statement. For example, “I disagree. It did indeed work and here’s why…”

    When Fe / Te communicate with each other in this manner, neither one is intending to change the other person’s essence. Instead, they are externalizing a personal observation about a situation. Oftentimes, this can come in the form of a challenge to the correctness of an action or feeling, but the implicit assumption is that the Fe/Te user is making a self-evident statement, and that the other Fe/Te user only needs to consider the Fe/Te logic being presented. They will either come around or respond with their own Fe/Te statement of logic. Thus, there is a bit of a tit for tat quality to these interactions.

    Pattern 2: Fi talks to Ti or vice versa.
    Fi and Ti communication is not so much straightforward as it is roundabout or indirect in its communication style. These are both internalized functions that communicate in archetypes and principles. Fi and Ti are subtle, indirect, and roundabout. Then try to gently realign the other person, while simultaneously cross-checking one's own Ti/Fi for possible errors. Maybe they really are correct.

    When Ti responds to Fi or Fi responds to Ti, this is usually done via statements of the principles involved. For example, in Fi to Fi communication, such archetypal communication takes the form of a reflexive “I” statement with each person sharing their own experiences as archetypes that are illustrative to the matter at hand. Ti to Ti communication tends to parse the logical finer points of the matter at hand, via observations that parse the logical integrity of the principles the Ti user has identified as being at play. Each iteration of the Ti/Ti user conversation brings the Ti user to a better understanding of the essence of the matter at hand.

    Fi/Ti communication is a combination of these two conversational techniques. Since both Fi and Ti are sharing subjective, internalized observations but tend to focus on different things (viz., feelings versus logic) there is a predictable miscommunication. Fi and Ti often feel that the other is missing the point or the essence of the matter being discussed.

    Part 3 and 4 are still percolating in my head. Does any of this jive with what you were trying to say?
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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