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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    oh, let me think on this..

    I actually was just trying to conserve space-Pattern one was really meant to be Te to Te or Fe to Fe-not Te to Fe and so on...

    Perhaps it would be better to say :
    Pattern 1-Je to Je of the same Je
    Pattern 2-Ji to Ji of the same Ji
    Pattern 3- Nudging external with Je to realign anothers Ji through the other's Je-assuming both share the same JiJe
    Pattern 4-An Ji aux/dom principle which gets extroverted as Je to go through another's Je to realign their Ji principles-again assuming they share the same JeJi

    So these seem to be what I would call our "natural" ways we communicate to others to disagree and seek a new understanding. Once established it presents a nice foundation to then analyze things like what you actually discussed-when two folks dont share the same JiJe. It can be treated as a template to understand what we arent getting. For instance if an INFJ is baffled by ENFPs-by understanding the fundamental pattern differs-each side can understand how they are projecting their own pattern incorrectly or are inadvertantly contributing to the communication barrier.

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    oh actually you got it-and then extended it-awesome!

    Edit-Te to Fe direct communication can also be disrupted as they both seek to control the external world-but using very different metrics to determine the "best" solution. They also use very different tools, so when the two interact, the Te user can appear very assertive and uncaring while the Fe user appears illogical and emotional. In reality those are both false observations.

    Ti to Fi can up as a train wreck but follows a pretty reproducible pattern as well. However it mostly gets totally messed up by the external objective functions taking over defensively.

    (Note this is worst case scenario sort of stuff. We all develop sloppy, muddy coping mechanisms and projections to get us through these misunderstandings on a daily basis, unless we are VERY different form the other person)

  3. #13
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think that both Fe and Te can be quite matter-of-fact, dispassionate and blunt, but about much different things. Therefore, the Fe users bluntness about people issues (that's not an appropriate way to voice your dissent, you're self-centred, you're being unreasonable, etc) tends to poke Fi users in more sensitive or chaffable areas. Similarly, Te's bluntness (prove it!, we don't do things that way around here, that's impractical/illogical etc) tends to poke Ti users in their more sensitive or chaffable areas. It's kind of like elephant skin vs frog skin. Even if the frog threw back some kind of barb, it's not going to hurt the elephant (extraverted function user) nearly in the same way that the same thing would hurt them. At most, it is an inconvenience or annoyance to them, which bothers the introverted function user even more. Both extroverted functions see the distinctions that the opposite introverted function user are making as insignificant or impractical to really consider when trying to determine a realistic course of action. The introverted function user's way seems roundabout and they grow impatience with the retiscence to even verbalize, let alone come to practical conclusions about the implications of these very detailed thoughts or feelings. It seems like it is a waste of time to discuss something that has no bearing on the ultimate course of action, while the introverted function user things it's of essential value.

  4. #14
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think that both Fe and Te can be quite matter-of-fact, dispassionate and blunt, but about much different things. Therefore, the Fe users bluntness about people issues (that's not an appropriate way to voice your dissent, you're self-centred, you're being unreasonable, etc) tends to poke Fi users in more sensitive or chaffable areas. Similarly, Te's bluntness (prove it!, we don't do things that way around here, that's impractical/illogical etc) tends to poke Ti users in their more sensitive or chaffable areas. It's kind of like elephant skin vs frog skin. Even if the frog threw back some kind of barb, it's not going to hurt the elephant (extraverted function user) nearly in the same way that the same thing would hurt them. At most, it is an inconvenience or annoyance to them, which bothers the introverted function user even more. Both extroverted functions see the distinctions that the opposite introverted function user are making as insignificant or impractical to really consider when trying to determine a realistic course of action. The introverted function user's way seems roundabout and they grow impatience with the retiscence to even verbalize, let alone come to practical conclusions about the implications of these very detailed thoughts or feelings. It seems like it is a waste of time to discuss something that has no bearing on the ultimate course of action, while the introverted function user things it's of essential value.
    Fidelia, this is very well said. I agree completely with you here. And I think you really expressed well the varying degrees of sensitivity.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #15
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I greatly appreciate what I've learned from you in regards to this. I don't think I had any kind of sense of this before that one thread. Thanks for being willing to see it through.

  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Fidelia, thank you much for your thoughts-they really are an excellent perspective and your descriptions are always excellent. My entp at lunch agreed with one of the other thoughts you shared on another thread. She said "If the Fe users are yelling at you, it is most likely because they tried to tell you nicely five times in a row and you didnt listen." I said "well maybe I listened but just didnt agree..." Something about this made her start laughing and espousing the obliviousness of Te and ridiculousness of Fi... At any rate, your interpretations and contributions are always wonderful and insightful.

    To sort of poke around this topic-How does it feel to interact with very strong Te users? Growing up did you identify coping strategies or communications skills, or simple recognition and forgiveness of individuality to help smooth over their sometimes abrupt communication style? I notice the INTJs are VERY good at picking up Fe communication techniques as memorized speech patterns. I thought it was a Te thing perhaps but when I watch my little INTJ-he already practices how to say things in different ways to different people-I suspect he is Ni-ing learned phrases to achieve the results he seeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The introverted function user's way seems roundabout and they grow impatience with the retiscence to even verbalize, let alone come to practical conclusions about the implications of these very detailed thoughts or feelings. It seems like it is a waste of time to discuss something that has no bearing on the ultimate course of action, while the introverted function user things it's of essential value.
    Do you think this same frustration may occur a bit between Ni and Ne or Si and Se-just a bit though?

    (Also I realized it may not be clear, the purpose of this particular thread oddly...I think it is sort of Ne-Sish. I havwe seen bits of these patterns repeated-so the automatic inclinitation is to expand those patterns around as far as I can...because I know one pattern is real, I am pulled to find the other patterns that MUST be around it. Like a jigsaw puzzle I guess)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    Pattern 1:Te/Fe:

    Te and Fe communicative nudges seem to be very direct and even blunt. It seems okay to both-as the Te and Fe is external to the ego perhaps?

    Pattern 2: Fi/Ti:
    Fi and Ti suggestions seem to be much more roundabout, more suggestive of exposing those subjective principles to another, then gently pointing out areas of disagreement. It is very subtle, rather indirect and never overtly states that the other is WRONG, rather seeks areas of nonagreement, then tries to gently realign the other person, while simultaneously cross-checking one's own Ti/Fi for possible errors. Maybe they really are correct.
    Fe is blunt? Fe is all about being tactful. Doing everything in one's power to not upset the other person at all (not that it's always a good thing or productive, of course).

    Maybe what you are talking about is statements vs. questions? Which would be more about socionics than MBTI (declaring vs. asking, and judicious vs. decisive). I talk in statements with the intention of someone correcting me if I am wrong (which I adjust if I know the person I am talking to doesn't like that; which, of course, I don't always know). It's not that I'm stubborn. It's the way I talk. It probably creates confusion as one side thinks you're being arrogant and the other side thinks you're being unproductive.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    We all develop sloppy, muddy coping mechanisms and projections to get us through these misunderstandings on a daily basis, unless we are VERY different form the other person.
    If we remembered this, we could all take steps to understand each other instead of getting pissed at each other all the time. (I'm talking about IRL, not this forum. heh)

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Pattern 2 seems like normal convos between NXPs. The Fi users state "I" statements reflectively and the Ti users debate each other.
    I dunno...I ALWAYS use "I" statments when talking about important things to show that IT'S JUST WHAT I THINK, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S THE TRUTH!!! to other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I suspect if a strong Te user was having a convo with an Fe dom/aux and tried pattern 3-it might feel like a nasty attack on their Ti.
    I dunno...I feel pretty offended by Te (gone wrong, of course) without addressing my Ti. "How could you not care about how you're affecting others?!? How could you only care about the system?!? " That would be my Fe talking, not my Ti...though yes, my Ti can get offended by Te judgments.


    Am I just the odd one out in this thread or something? :confused:

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    oro - this is really interesting, but can you try to give some examples for those numbered patterns you listed? my Ti kind of sucks and i'm getting stuck at coming up with an example for #3 with Ti in particular.

    i'm trying to think about how myself and a very good friend (ENFJ) communicate when we disagree, because we inevitably run into this. and i think i know exactly the tension that occurs when we do run into Fe-Fi and Te-Ti mismatches, but i'm trying to figure out our patterns.

    i think it can go like this:

    ENFJ: proposal of Ni goal ; Fe action to achieve
    ENFP: Fi protest to Fe action
    ENFJ: explanation of how Ni goal serves humanistic concern (Fi) (bonus points for how it adds to knowledge (Ne))
    ENFP: approves Fe action (OR) raises additional protest

    ENFP: makes Ne observation and Fi complaint
    ENFJ: agrees via Ni - Fe assessment (OR) disagrees citing Ni reasoning
    ENFP: explanation of how Fi concern is universally applicable (Ni) (bonus points for how it's applicable in interactions (Fe))
    ENFJ: approves Fi complaint (OR) raises additional disagreements

    so i guess with us it's essentially of making Ni and Fi agree - generally this is done by her connecting Ni to Fi and me connecting Fi to Ni. which kind of makes sense - we have to draw the other in alignment with our internal functions; the external functions are already more malleable. i actually really don't see Ti and Te coming into our issues much... probably in her case because it's so low in her function order, and doesn't tend to emerge - and when i tend to engage Te, it's during situational troubleshooting (which she has no interest in anyway, i'm the crisis manager, lol) - or it's during arguing. in which case it's a shitstorm. tert Te thinks inf Ti is impractical and useless while inf Ti thinks that tert Te is clumsy and a moron (not to mention poor Fe and Fi getting attacked by Te and Ti, respectively)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Fe is blunt? Fe is all about being tactful. Doing everything in one's power to not upset the other person at all (not that it's always a good thing or productive, of course).
    i feel (Feel) like Fe is more blunt sometimes because it has a pointed intention and is accompanied by a Ni or Si goal. it generally has more of an active agenda than Fi does, as Fi is more responsive and passive. that is reflected in statements, but especially in directive statements. Fe statements tend to try to get others to do something. Fi is either absorbing or just wanting someone to "get off my lawn" - ie stop breaking my ethical code - but then once the infringement is over, Fi is done. it doesn't really care what you do, as long as you're not hurting. Fe, on the other hand, like Te, is always seeing more efficient ways to achieve things, so it "nudges". and to someone who doesn't have high Fe too, Fe behavior doesn't always seem super tactful. it can be startlingly transparent.

    edit: basically what fidelia said lol

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