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  1. #1
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…

    I can think of no other area in which the differences between Fi and Fe reveal themselves more blatantly.
    1. What constitutes loyalty?
    2. What is expected of those pledging friendship and allegiance?
    3. If someone displays disloyalty, what is the appropriate response?

    I’d like to better understand the differences between Fe and Fi user responses to these questions. It seems to me that such differences have to do with…

    • How loyalty is displayed and how such behavior is interpreted by [Fe/Fi].
    • Who has the right to express disagreement per [Fe/Fi]?
    • How level of intimacy influences when and how disagreements or critiques are expressed by [Fe/Fi users].
    • How [Fe/Fi users] respond to our ideas / behaviors being critiqued.

    Please share your examples of when Fe and Fi have differing senses of disloyalty, loyalty, allegiance, and fidelity.

    Since these discussions can become very heated, let me remind everyone that this is intended to be a respectful and open discussion of these differences. Your comments, kudos, and criticisms, are welcome as long as you input is delivered in a kind and conciliatory manner.



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  2. #2
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Let me give you a couple of real life examples to illustrate. Note that I am doing my best to describe the below scenarios accurately and fairly. But obviously I can only relate them as I saw them from my Fi-user side of the table.

    Public Disagreement Doesn’t Necessarily Equate to Disloyalty. A local non-profit in my area was starting a new series of events. When I heard that these were “men only” events, I hit the roof. After calming down a bit, I (an Fi-user) called the non-profit and gently expressed that I felt single-gender events were inappropriate for A, B, and C reasons. I was very conciliatory, kind, and gentle with my comments. Nonetheless, the person who started this series (an Fe-user) interpreted my actions as a personal attack.

    I’ve racked my brain for another way I could have done this without this person feeling attacked. Attacking or hurting this person was the furthest thing from my mind. I guess I just do not understand why disagreeing with an idea was equated by this Fe user as a direct volley at him. It was just his idea that I took issue with. And, I was very gentle in my suggestions that his idea be modified. <Sigh.> I concluded this friction was caused by differences in how Fe and Fi perceive loyalty… and somehow I had (unbeknownst to me) stepped into the Fe disloyalty zone.

    Loyalty Expressed Via Hurting Others. There was a guy. He was being a goober. And, I had to defend myself against his gooberishness. This was all done in the time honored tradition of women snapping back potential suitors for their own idiocy.

    Well, his best friend (an ENFJ and Fe dominant) with whom I’d been on pleasant acquaintance terms for almost 20 years, decided that he to be loyal to his friend he would “dis” me. I had done absolutely nothing to the best friend. Nonetheless, he went around trying to socially destroy me (this is not an exaggeration) by telling anyone who would listen what a horrible person I was... all in the name of being loyal to his friend.

    I was so hurt and baffled by the best friend’s behavior. In my mind, this was a private issue between me and the potential suitor. The friend had no right to get involved. He was mucking up any possibility of me and the potential suitor recovering from his tactical error. More importantly, the best friend had no justification to hurt me when I hadn’t done anything directly to him. When I asked another ENFJ to help me understand the dynamics here, he said to me, “Well, loyalty is not just about supporting the people you love. It’s also about hurting the enemies of the people you love.”

    I was floored. This is sooooo not the way I see the world. I’ve since come to understand that this fiasco might have been instigated by a display of Fe loyalty by the best friend. This same display of loyalty by the best friend in support of his friend seemed disloyal to the underlying principle of judging others based on personal experience and NOT solely based on the ventings of a friend. Friends opinions' are important, but I would never deliberately go on the attack solely based on a friend's assessment. Thus, I found the best friend's behavior deeply offensive to the point of my Fi judging his behavior as immoral.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #3
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    This is an important thing for me. That is, I give it to others and expect them to do the same in return. There was a work situation recently where I felt someone had acted in a disloyal manner (ESFJ). It was extremely disappointing. I confronted her with it it on Friday - not in a critical way - more to understand why she did what she did. What it came down to was that I provided some honest feedback on something. She took offense. So, her and her other compadre proceeded to do this thing which I won't get into that I felt was pretty disloyal. I think I communicated enough for her to know that I was disappointed or unhappy with her actions. It's too bad because it really breaks down trust and that impacts her a lot more than me.

    Some of this probably relates to how you express loyalty for others. In my book, it's standing up for them, being their champion, not talking about them behind their back, not doing things to hurt/harm them and stuff like that. I closely correlate it with allegiance. The problem I have is that I have a tendency to confront issues and I'm not always as diplomatic as I'd like or people read in intentions that are not there. Others can take this as criticism or that I'm not on their side. It's frustrating because I see others who just tell people what they want to hear and then shit on them behind their back. To me, I lose a lot of respect for a person when I see that kind of behavior. I don't know if this relates to Fe/Fi or what.

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  4. #4
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    There are a lot of questions here, so I'm going to start with the two examples given and just add my two cents.

    In the first case, I think you have to keep in mind that ideas are very representative to Fe-Ti of the people who make them. Just as you would show caution as a Fi-Te user about telling someone that their feelings are offensive and unreasonable to you, you need to show caution as here. He had put a lot of work into what he was doing and probably felt either attached to his position or embarrassed when you pointed out the problem.

    Therefore, instead of going at the idea directly, you need to point out how it would be to the other person's advantage to consider an aspect that they might not have thought about rather than going at it head on. This may seem like selling out to you, but if the issue is getting him to understand why his decision was inappropriate, this is the way that you have the most success of actually making him think differently about it. It would be important to first understand why they had chosen to make it a men only event (would men be more receptive to the information/activity if it was only men there, were their multiple goals trying to be accomplished, was it a way of making a more homogenous group to work together?). When you understand the other person's reasoning and determine whether it is a deeply held position, thoughtlessness, or a need of additional insight, you can go into the situation in a much more informed manner. It tells you from what direction you need to approach the argument and also keeps you from immediately being discredited by the other person, who feels that you are just projecting your own thoughts or beliefs on them without taking time to understand that they had reasoning too. You may also point out the personal implications that person's decision might have or how their organization could be negatively perceived by making it a mens-only event.

    When it comes down to it, unless you are a close friend or a very highly respected colleague, they don't care what your strongly held values are. You need to try to step into their shoes and understand why they chose as they did, and then explain how your strongly held values could be important for them to consider. Also avoid using too forceful of language and give them a couple of days to think it over. It seems counter-intuitive, but will actually make success much more likely.

    I realize that to Fi these issues are a matter of conscience and it seems smarmy to paint them as anything but that. I'm not advocating being dishonest, but rather trying to see things through their eyes. A ball of tangled and knotted string only gets worse when you pull on it and try to fix it immediately; you need to take the time to see where the tangles are and slowly pull them loose. Similarly, I think you only discourage or exasperate someone if you come on too forcefully without taking time to see where the "tangles" are from their perspective and address them before suggesting your solution.

    With the second situation, I think that is just an example of someone being a busybody and a jerk. Each type has predictable generalized ways of interacting in healthy ways. While certain unhealthy thoughts or actions may be expressed in a particular way by each type (eg some are more likely to withdraw, others only show their strong side, some manipulate, etc), those unhealthy actions are not really a central part of people that type. Obviously, it is your right to reject any suitor that you please. If I were trying to be the rejected suitor's loyal friend, I probably would refrain from socializing a lot with you until the sting of the rejection had worn off for my friend and he had moved on. However, this is just a case of the "loyal friend" taking matters into his own hands and maybe even being counter-productive to his own friend's success. Who knows what all is at play here. You have to take into account the health of the individual, age, maturity level, history and so on. I don't think you're going to find a lot of NFJs on here saying that they think this is good behaviour.

    It is however, an example of Fe's ability to create an emotional atmosphere and not just to make everyone be nicey nice. Like unhealthy Fi, unhealthy Fe is destructive as well. I think it is important to compare healthy Fe to healthy Fi to understand differences, vs unhealthy Fe to healthy Fi. Does that make sense?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    1. What constitutes loyalty?
    2. What is expected of those pledging friendship and allegiance?
    3. If someone displays disloyalty, what is the appropriate response?

    Loyalty is a part of friendship wherein you don't do anything that destructs the other person's ideal manifestation. You always present the people you're loyal to in their best light. You don't criticize them in public or argue with their ideas in front of other people; conversely, you do argue with them strenuously in private if you feel strongly that they're going down the wrong road. Your energy goes toward their good as they define it. You support and encourage their goals in every way you are able.

    For me, if someone is disloyal, I drop them.

    And the enemy of my enemy is my friend, yeah. It's tribal.

    I don't really understand the interaction with the Fe user who started the program of men-only events that you objected to, but in looking for clues, I'm noticing you said you called the non-profit -- you did not call the Fe user whose idea all this was? That would be a betrayal.

  6. #6
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Some of this probably relates to how you express loyalty for others. In my book, it's standing up for them, being their champion, not talking about them behind their back, not doing things to hurt/harm them and stuff like that. I closely correlate it with allegiance. The problem I have is that I have a tendency to confront issues and I'm not always as diplomatic as I'd like or people read in intentions that are not there. Others can take this as criticism or that I'm not on their side. It's frustrating because I see others who just tell people what they want to hear and then shit on them behind their back. To me, I lose a lot of respect for a person when I see that kind of behavior. I don't know if this relates to Fe/Fi or what.
    This is how I think of loyalty. I don't think it is a Fi/Fe issue. I suspect it could end up dismissive, incorrect, and hurtful to make it into an issue of function if loyalty itself is identified with one or the other. It should remain in terms of how it is expressed and understood based on function, and not on the degree of loyalty.

    I have a system of "loyalty" for people in general. I have a personal ethic to not talk about people behind their backs in environments where they could be affected by the discussion. If I have an employer or coworker who causes me problems, I will talk to my family or fiance' about it, but not to coworkers. The closest I come to talking behind a back is discussing some family issues with family because there is an established common trust and concern. If I know the other person loves someone as much as I do and we are both worried about them, then there is discussion of mutual concern and problem solving, but I don't say critical hurtful things. I also feel strongly protective of the people I love, and the worst situation is when I can't act to help when someone has caused harm. I would go to great lengths to help. With people I don't know, I have had protective feelings for them when I know they have suffered and someone is mocking or harming them. In the past I have jumped in to help, but when I look back I am not certain it was help. I hate those scenarios because I have a feeling of regret regardless of what I do. I try to resolve it by understanding that a person can only do the best they can with the information they have.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #7
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Loyalty is a part of friendship wherein you don't do anything that destructs the other person's ideal manifestation. You always present the people you're loyal to in their best light. You don't criticize them in public or argue with their ideas in front of other people; conversely, you do argue with them strenuously in private if you feel strongly that they're going down the wrong road. Your energy goes toward their good as they define it. You support and encourage their goals in every way you are able.
    I could not express this any better! This is it exactly!!!!!!!!!

  8. #8
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    This is how I think of loyalty. I don't think it is a Fi/Fe issue. I suspect it could end up dismissive, incorrect, and hurtful to make it into an issue of function if loyalty itself is identified with one or the other. It should remain in terms of how it is expressed and understood based on function, and not on the degree of loyalty.

    I have a system of "loyalty" for people in general. I have a personal ethic to not talk about people behind their backs in environments where they could be affected by the discussion. If I have an employer or coworker who causes me problems, I will talk to my family or fiance' about it, but not to coworkers. The closest I come to talking behind a back is discussing some family issues with family because there is an established common trust and concern. If I know the other person loves someone as much as I do and we are both worried about them, then there is discussion of mutual concern and problem solving, but I don't say critical hurtful things. I also feel strongly protective of the people I love, and the worst situation is when I can't act to help when someone has caused harm. I would go to great lengths to help. With people I don't know, I have had protective feelings for them when I know they have suffered and someone is mocking or harming them. In the past I have jumped in to help, but when I look back I am not certain it was help. I hate those scenarios because I have a feeling of regret regardless of what I do. I try to resolve it by understanding that a person can only do the best they can with the information they have.

    I'm strongly loyal as a person.
    I identify with this too! I think at times there is a need to discuss someone's problems in terms of deciding what you should do, but you must never do that with someone who is not discrete and who doesn't share the same level of love and concern for them that you do.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It can take some serious hashing out, loyalty issues. My closest friend/coworker is an INFJ and she and I argued for the better part of a day about the merits or lack thereof of people we have to work with, and we never did agree, but we found common ground in the fact that we found out it's a button you don't push unless you want to see some fireworks. So while I don't like her team and she doesn't like mine, what we know about each other is that we're each loyal to our team. So out of loyalty to each other, we don't diss each other's team outright. We do discuss differences, but now that we've hashed it out and know where each other stands, it is more like discussing a family member, where you can understand their quirks and habits of mind.

    I would not go on the attack out of the clear blue if someone hurt a person I am loyal to, but I would withdraw support, and I might undermine if the opportunity presented itself. This would be an extreme case of someone doing very serious damage to a friend.

    OH, and PS, I was wondering if these were good ol' boys, because that's what it sounds like to me, some good ol' boy shit, and I see you're in South Carolina, yes? Move north.

  10. #10
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I don't really understand the interaction with the Fe user who started the program of men-only events that you objected to, but in looking for clues, I'm noticing you said you called the non-profit -- you did not call the Fe user whose idea all this was? That would be a betrayal.
    And as part of a non-profit team...I would be bothered by the fact that two people were discussing something that should be decided on...as a team...outside of the group.

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