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  1. #51
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I agree with this. I want to be loyal to truth and righteousness as much as possible. I am sorry when this led to being incisive. But some have thanked me later on.

    I have a question. Will loyalty sometimes be synonymous with exclusion and favoritism?
    I had to think about this one for a while and the short answer is yes. One of my sayings is, "I'm all stocked up on friends." It's not that I have a boatload or anything but because of the closeness of the relationships and frequency of contact, it is all I can handle in order to maintain balance in my life. So, yes I regularly show favoritism towards my core group of friends and invariably end up excluding people who aren't part of my inner circle. There are only so many hours in a day

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    What if the person you chose to be loyal to displays questionable or hurtful behaviour? Will you follow him on that track and defend him?

    Loving a friend, I think, means to point out his mistakes to him or even denounce him (in case of a crime) when he refuses to change and needs correction because this behaviour is leading him to destruction and also generates destruction around him.
    Yes. I never defend what I believe to be wrong. However unless it is a matter of keeping another person safe (e.g. driving drunk), I generally won't impose my will, simply offer my opinion since right and wrong is subjective in most cases.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The two things are not at all mutually exclusive. I would stick by him while telling him he needs to straighten up.

  3. #53
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.



    Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

    I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

    Maybe what I mean trying more to say is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits to a greater degree? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

    But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

    Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?
    I don't think this is an Fe / Fi issue. At least not in my observation. Secure people can listen to constructive criticism and insecure people can't. I really think it is that simple. ENFJ's seem to keep coming up. I think that the obvious backlash is more a function of the E part of the equation. Extroverts are more aggressive. So an insecure extrovert who feels threatened will rip your head off and shove it up your ass...figuratively speaking of course. Whereas an insecure introvert is more likely to handle things in a more passive manner...one day you find that you are no longer invited to meetings.

    Speaking personally, I work for myself. I've had two people who work for me. One is a production position...I have a yes man for that job. His job is to produce. By the time things get to him they have been approved and simply need to be implemented. He can point out mistakes or make requests that will make his job easier, but I honestly don't want his opinions on the merits of the work. Lucky for me, he has no desire to do anything but produce. The other is a creative position. I want his opinions, ideas, thoughts. If he disagrees with me I want to know why. I will often go with his opinion, but the final decision is mine. Sometimes he just has to shut up and do what I say. I'm the boss. That's how it works. And I in turn give my clients my opinion and if they disagree with me, I have to shut up and do what they say. It's the circle of life...or business as it were.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
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    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  4. #54
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The two things are not at all mutually exclusive. I would stick by him while telling him he needs to straighten up.
    Yeah, I agree with that. I suppose this leads us to a higher version of loyaltly than the one often observed. Perhaps certain attitudes are called "loyalty" but are not that. I think loyalty is a positive thing.

    "Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." (Proverbs 27:6)

  5. #55
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    one way i've found of getting around this, which i have learned mostly from observing my mom (ESFJ), is to flatter the person you're talking to while offering neutral suggestions as a different way of getting the intended outcome, if that makes sense. so in this example, maybe like telling the guy how much you appreciate his work, how people are really excited about it, etc, but mention that something occurred to you, which is that maybe he would be able to reach even more people by extending his efforts out to women too, if he hasn't already considered that (which, given Pi, he may well have, and chose not to for a specific reason.) and if he says he'd rather not, then he'll probably explain his reasoning why, and you can either be in accordance with that or, if you still disagree, present your case for why you think it'd be beneficial.

    for me, it's been a big growing experience to need to shift myself to understand things in this light, but sometimes it's a much more effective system than the Fi-Te way of going about things. it feels a little disingenuous sometimes, but i try to think of it in terms of supporting and respecting the person while trying to change an outcome, instead of my conventional ideal-orientation. i think that it's hard to shift to people-loyalty, but when i'm thinking about my relationship with my best friend (ENFJ), for instance, i feel like i just have to "suspend" my own rules and be patient, and that's how i'm loyal to her. i know that she also has to do the same to put up with my more open temper and less interpersonal awareness.
    Skylights, I thought this a beautiful testimony to what these forums can teach us about how to improve our interpersonal relations. And, I'm going to try it next time I have the opportunity and will post on here how it works. Of course, the Fi/Te in me feels like couching constructive criticism in a plethora of compliments is a little... well a lot inefficient and not necessarily being true to myself... but then again I'm capable of living beyond the Fi/Te box I was born into. If I can connect with someone on their own MBTI turf, then it is well worth the effort.

    I do wonder if I had to work around a bunch of Fe/Ti users, if I'd eventually get exhausted taking the above approach. It does seem exhausting to me. On the other hand, I've already learned enough from the very, very gracious Fe/Ti users on this forum that they find accommodating my Fi/Te exhausting. So it's all good and even steven in the end.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #56
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoSunshine View Post
    I don't think this is an Fe / Fi issue. At least not in my observation. Secure people can listen to constructive criticism and insecure people can't. I really think it is that simple. ENFJ's seem to keep coming up. I think that the obvious backlash is more a function of the E part of the equation. Extroverts are more aggressive. So an insecure extrovert who feels threatened will rip your head off and shove it up your ass...figuratively speaking of course. Whereas an insecure introvert is more likely to handle things in a more passive manner...one day you find that you are no longer invited to meetings.

    Speaking personally, I work for myself. I've had two people who work for me. One is a production position...I have a yes man for that job. His job is to produce. By the time things get to him they have been approved and simply need to be implemented. He can point out mistakes or make requests that will make his job easier, but I honestly don't want his opinions on the merits of the work. Lucky for me, he has no desire to do anything but produce. The other is a creative position. I want his opinions, ideas, thoughts. If he disagrees with me I want to know why. I will often go with his opinion, but the final decision is mine. Sometimes he just has to shut up and do what I say. I'm the boss. That's how it works. And I in turn give my clients my opinion and if they disagree with me, I have to shut up and do what they say. It's the circle of life...or business as it were.
    This made me laugh so hard, JoSunshine. I think there is truth to what you're saying here. I think (hope) the bringing of up ENFJs on this thread was merely coincidental. However, it is understandable that among the NF types, ENFJs and ENFPs would experience the widest communication gulf in this area. So since I'm an ENFP, perhaps it is a little expected that these communication differences would be for me most salient with an ENFJ.

    I, too, have wondered if this is truly an Fi/Te versus Fe/Ti issue, or if it has to do with personal maturity and security which is a pan-human kind of issue. I've concluded that it is both.

    Average functioning vs. high functioning.
    It seems to me that an average functioning Fe/Ti user and an average functioning Fi/Te user are likely to have friction when it comes to publicly critiquing ideas / behaviors. That being said, high functioning (read self-actualized / mature / secure) Fe/Ti and Fi/Te users can transcend the cognitive functions they were born to prefer. Isn't this the heart of maturity? Realizing that the whole world doesn't revolve around you? Realizing that other people have valid worldviews and (within reason) accommodating them?

    Why I chose my examples. I think that the reason I picked the two examples that I did of Fe/Fi loyalty differences, is because they are so extreme that these Fe/Fi differences seemed very clear cut. However, I know what the readers of this thread do not: that the two gentlemen I referred to in my examples (one an INFJ, the other an ENFJ, and both Fe/Ti users), have exhibited immaturity about such things on more than these occasions. I make this judgment after watching them operate in several venues and with a wide array of people. Neither one has expressed self-actualization in the behaviors I've personally observed.
    • Click here to read the post in which I give my two examples.
    So, JoSunshine, I think the answer to whether this is really an Fe/Fi issue or an immature/mature issue isn't so clear cut. I think both factors come into play.

    In terms of my own maturity, I feel like I'm a much more mature person than I was even six months ago. At least now, I realize how my ENFP modus operandi can rub people the wrong way. And, I have learned how to anticipate this and tailor my approach to be more precise in my communication. After all, regardless of my intentions, if what I intend to communicate is misunderstood by the recipient, then we have a communication FAIL. I can only control my half of the bi-directional communication process. Thus, I started this thread so I could better understand these issues.

    Thanks to everyone so far who has responded. I've read them all... even if I haven't had time to respond to everyone so far. Your responses have already helped me tremendously.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  7. #57
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Skylights - I agree that what you describe is the more Fe-Ti way of going about things. I want to make a distinction (in case people wonder) that I would not ever say something flattering to someone that I did not actually believe to be true. That is why, to me, it doesn't feel like I am being disengenuous. It is true that I am expressing those good things as a means of the person being more receptive to what I might point out to them, but that doesn't mean I don't express the positives at other times as well when I am not trying to effect change.

    One thing I read recently is research that suggests people do not react as well to the praise first, criticize after that we're all told to do nearly as well as expressing where you see the problem, and then segueing into the praise/solution, since the negative tends to have the greatest emotional impact and this makes the negatives more distant in the hearer's recall. I was sort of surprised by that. I wish I could remember the name of the book. They featured it in a whole article of MacLean's magazine earlier this fall.

  8. #58
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Fidelia, with a little luck from Google, I tracked down your book. The Neurology of Criticism and Praise by Clifford Nass. And here is the Maclean's article: http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/30/c...-conversation/

    You can also read a brief overview of the book here at Rideau: http://rideau.com/blog/8/neurology-criticism-and-praise

    Sounds very interesting. I'm just the kind of nerd that loves to read this stuff. I'll add it to my GoodReads.com to-be-read list.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #59
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Haha! This is why I try to stock a few Te users in my life. Thanks ma'am! I think I'd like to order it from our library as I thought it would be interesting to see what they had to say.

  10. #60
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Yes EW, I read every post and wrote what my concept of loyalty is. I personally can't relate to the work example you gave at all. I think that I would definitely take more of a defensive stance if someone started telling me what is wrong with what I am doing or even feeling like someone had decided I was wrong before understanding why I made the choice I did. I have no idea if you sought to gain understanding before criticizing, but if not that could be the potential culprit. I can't speak for every Fe user, but would be off putting to me...maybe to a lot of people regardless of functions. That being said, I wouldn't get my ass on my shoulders either way...business is business. I'm rarely offended.

    As far as defending my friends go. I will defend them if I feel they are right, but tell them they are wrong if I think they are wrong. If one of them is in a disagreement I usually only get involved to try to calm the situation. However I have been known to spring into action in a big way if I feel they are being threatened by an aggressive person. But even then my objective is to neutralize the situation and move on. I can see how a dramatic Fe user can take defending someone to unhealthy levels.

    I guess after thinking about things a bit (my SO is an Fi user) that there are different concepts of loyalty on many levels. He handles things very differently than I do, but I generally don't perceive them as being wrong...frustrating at times...even more frustrating at others, but not wrong. I'm not sure how much of it is an Fe / Fi issue and how much of it is a me / him issue

    My SO is an Fi user and I do think that we struggle with the concept of loyalty on a personal level at times.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
    Extroverted (E) 52.5%........Introverted (I) 47.5%
    Intuitive (N) 65.63%..........Sensing (S) 34.38%
    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

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