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  1. #41
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold 1: Sorry this isn't clear to me; Fi sees what as "selling out"?
    I suspect Fidelia is saying that Fe works towards the best socially workable/practical solution... and is more tolerant of compromise to get there. Fi tends to be more absolute, and less tolerant of the social structures that get in the way of implementation of principles. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Fidelia!)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold 2: This sounds a little presumptive that the Fe outcome is the best possible outcome. That's a pretty subjective viewpoint.
    I suspect she just meant the best of outcomes given the social systems. Fe leans towards seeing those systems as tools and means of expression, rather than merely impediments.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Maybe the friction point is not so much Fe vs Fi but Fe vs Te here. Te will strive for what it can realistically make happen as well ..... perhaps it's the manner of working toward the goal that's more the rub. Fe will work the people, not question the ideas so much; Fi will not question the people as much as they will seek the most practical idea.
    I think both Fe and Te are practical, but just in different areas. Fe wields "soft power"—social structures and relationships—to convince and motivate. Te focuses more on explicit authority and the real world mechanics to get things done. Both Te and Fe tend to form networks of like-minded folks who reinforce the system (in their respective realms). So, it makes sense to me that Te-users are not going to directly challenge the explicit authority structures (but, with balance, see it as a tool for implementing Fi values) and Fe-users are not going to directly rip apart the social structure (but, with balance, instead see it as a way of implementing Ti-based improvements).

    So, when an Fi-user speaks up something he or she sees as wrong with the group, it can feel like an attack on what is making change possible (from an Fe perspective). That may come across as disloyalty, when the Fi-user sees it more as being true to the values the group claims to represent.

  2. #42
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think PB must mean Fe doms, not INFJs.
    Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

    I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

    Maybe what I mean trying more to say is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits to a greater degree? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

    But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

    Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  3. #43
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.



    Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

    I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

    Maybe what I mean more is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits more? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

    But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

    Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?
    Sure, thanks for clarifying and adding that anecdote. That helps.

    To the bolded - yes, I would agree. However, I need to add that I do not thinkthis is necessarily an Fe/Te thing (or Fe/Fi thing - whatever). I think we're talking power structures here, and specific personalities. So, any number of different personalities in an authoritative role could react quite unfavorably to being called out in a meeting or in a public manner, no matter how the disagreement/questioning is presented. On the other hand, other people in positions of authority - of perhaps the same type - could react quite differently and might be more chill with being put in the spotlight or questioned.

    Regardless of whether person-in-authority is Fe or not, it takes good people-reading/ organizational-reading skills I think to be able to navigate whether that's a 'wise' thing to do or whether it'll come back and haunt you or hurt your own prospects to do so. With your example, ENFJ head-guy was apparently someone everyone else didn't want to question at all. I'd put money down though that you could find non-Fe types who would have the exact same dynamic with their subordinates, who follow sheepishly.

    It's an interesting scenario, though -- the idea/need of idea-questioning being off-limits with certain people.

    I know for myself, in organizations, I've actually garnered a lot more respect (I believe) when being more fearless in questioning ideas in meetings - it's very important to note though that I'm pretty darn careful how I word these things and will word based on who I'm talking to, and will 'read' the room. But, I know when that's a bad method and won't be good, in which case I would go 1:1 instead.
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  4. #44
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    I find the concept of loyalty a curious one. I consider myself to be a very loyal person to those who are near and dear to me. That being said, they are near and dear to me because we view loyalty in a similar fashion. There are a few key points:

    I believe in speaking my truth. If I have a friend who I believe behaved badly I will tell them if they ask me and sometimes even if they don't depending on how detrimental I perceive the behavior to be. Also, if a friend of mine looks to me when they are arguing with someone else, and I believe they are wrong I will tell them (although I would wait until we are in private given the option). I want the same from them. I don't want a fan club, I want people who will tell me the truth as they see it even if they know I won't like it. I want to be free to express my opinion and I want people to feel free to express their opinion to me even if it means we ultimately agree to disagree and love each other just the same. In a nutshell, to be able to have honest conversations with a spirit of acceptance for that which is different than ourselves, and a willingness to see ourselves through others eyes. You can't see your face without a mirror. My friends are my mirror.

    The first will be first. Those who are the most important to me get the lion's share of my time, effort and affection. I know that some people take the stance of, "You should be here for me no matter what because you are my friend." I don't think that way. I believe that if I want someone to be there for me when I need them, or to treat me with priority, I must do the same. I will skip a party to help a friend move, I will put aside my petty problems to help a friend in crisis, I never blow my close friends off for some sparkly new person because I assume I can see them "whenever". I don't take my friends for granted. I let them know everyday how much they mean to me everyday. For me loyalty is more than a feeling - it is words and most importantly it is actions. My friends know I will be there for them no matter what, and I am lucky to be able to say the same about them.

    I had a discussion about loyalty just last night with my ENTJ friend. We discussed two casual friends (one Fe and one Fi) who think of themselves as very loyal because they feel loyalty towards some one and they will indeed be someone's friend forever if the other person will have them. But we don't interpret their actions as loyal, quite the opposite. However we agreed that a person who is like-minded to them would be much more likely to not have an issue with what we perceive as disloyal behavior. I really think the definition of loyalty is subjective based on a individuals value system.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
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  5. #45
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, Seymour said it PB. I don't mean that Fe is the keeper of the BEST solutions. I'm just saying that it tends to look at the given circumstances and cobble up the best result that it can see available to it, using the power structures that are in place. From what I've seen, I think Fi users see this as giving up on THE CAUSE or selling out sometimes. I believe that Te and Ti have a similar kind of relationship. Ti sees certain ways of doing things as being very distinct and that to go for 80% is really not enough, just as Fi makes sharper distinctions and therefore feels that approximating what will do in this situation is not nearly enough.

    In both instances I believe it has to do with extroverted functions tolerating compromise as a means of getting closer to the goal and introverted functions feeling that compromise creates a very different product than the ideal that they wish to see.

  6. #46
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    It's an interesting scenario, though -- the idea/need of idea-questioning being off-limits with certain people.

    I know for myself, in organizations, I've actually garnered a lot more respect (I believe) when being more fearless in questioning ideas in meetings - it's very important to note though that I'm pretty darn careful how I word these things and will word based on who I'm talking to, and will 'read' the room. But, I know when that's a bad method and won't be good, in which case I would go 1:1 instead.
    You are right. It is advantageous to speak up diplomatically. It is how people get ahead professionally.

    This is difficult for me because the scenario is usually complicated from a social and emotional standpoint and is in a state of constant change, so by the time I have analyzed what I "should" say, the moment is gone. I also get overwhelmed in situations where everyone is complimenting the boss with thick praise. I was even less likely to speak up when younger. I remember my Algebra 2 teacher in high school was kinda goofy and made mistakes on the board. It was a small class and the others were assertive senior guys, so I know they would have spoken up if they figured it out. My motivation to remain quiet was based on two things: I didn't want to embarrass the teacher, and I didn't want to draw attention to myself. I figured it would all work out eventually, and it did. The problem is I'm still a bit like that.

    Loyalty is important to me. The relationship doesn't have to be perfect for me to feel loyal. Protecting their privacy is one big area of loyalty as is protecting the person from harm. It is also being reliable, available, and consistent. I also see loyalty as a kind of acceptance - of loving the person for who they are and not trying to change them even if they are different in idea or behavior.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  7. #47
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoSunshine View Post
    I find the concept of loyalty a curious one. [...]
    I want people who will tell me the truth as they see it even if they know I won't like it. I want to be free to express my opinion and I want people to feel free to express their opinion to me even if it means we ultimately agree to disagree and love each other just the same. In a nutshell, to be able to have honest conversations with a spirit of acceptance for that which is different than ourselves, and a willingness to see ourselves through others eyes. You can't see your face without a mirror.
    I agree with this. I want to be loyal to truth and righteousness as much as possible. I am sorry when this led to being incisive. But some have thanked me later on.

    I have a question. Will loyalty sometimes be synonymous with exclusion and favoritism?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yes, won't it? Otherwise, you'd be loyal to everything and everyone, in which case it loses its meaning.

  9. #49
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i... am not a loyal person by nature. but don't get me wrong - i'm not a disloyal person by nature either. i'm just like... aloyal. to people, at least. the concept didn't really make sense to me for a long time, and it just isn't a frame of mind that i enter often. i have a hard time with conventional loyalty because a lot of it just really seems counterintuitive to me - blindly trusting someone, not speaking up when you feel like something is wrong, trusting a fallible human, etc. and shouldn't you just be generally nice to everyone, and not talk behind their backs as a baseline rule?

    but anyway, what i just realized in writing this, is that i tend to be much, much more loyal to ideals than to people. i understand loyalty to ideals, but it really alters the way my personal sense of loyalty works - i'm very, very dedicated to certain groups, but my loyalty is more to the ideals of those groups than to the people themselves. i feel like people are flighty, changing, make questionable decisions, and are not always good. ideals, on the other hand, are stable and detached. they're timeless, infallible, and don't change their minds.and overall, i don't like being loyal to people because i end up being torn in two directions - either being loyal to them or loyal to my ideals. because when it comes down to that, my own ethics are going to win out.

    my understanding of people-loyalty is less "devotion" or "consistency" and more "unconditional love". it's much less uncomfortable and much more intutitive in that light.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I dont really feel "loyalty" to those I am in close relationships with. Loyalty isnt the correct word. Devotion is a better word to use. I am devoted to my children, to my SO, to my family. I am devoted to very close friends. It includes most of the above ideas about loyalty-but also includes a willingness to sacrifice myself if need be on their behalf. Like I have been given them as a gift to care for...

    Ideas..I dunno..loyalty to a cause I feel is justified, maybe? But that really isnt loyalty as much as tenaciousness. If it is worthwhile I will fight, literally fight, for the cause.
    Great points. This is where my confusion over the issue comes from. I don't feel loyalty in the traditional sense to people. I do as you guys have said, feel loyalty to the ideal however sometimes that ideal is aligned with a person - these could be friendship, trust, respect, gratitude etc. The problem arose when I tried to think of example situations of loyalty in my head I struggled to think of one where I would back a person up even when it clashes with some of my values - because how can you be truly loyal to someone if this bond is so easily broken?

    I always think of a common dilemma in movies (and in real life for that matter):

    Someone discovers that an immediate family member (eg son/daughter/brother/sister/spouse or an extremely close friend) has committed a crime and they must decide whether to turn them in to the police or not. More often than not (in Hollywood's version), people prefer to cover up the crime, feign ignorance or give a false alibi to protect that relative.

    I guess this may be considered something of a Fi vs Fe loyalty situation (although we may come to similar conclusions just through different means), so it might be of worth to ask you what would you do in such a situation? To help make it easier, here are some more specific scenarios regarding the crime:

    1. A non-violence offence in which no one was directly physically hurt or threatened (eg. minor fraud, shoplifting, small-scale drug-dealing)
    2. A more involved crime in which people weren't hurt but may have been threatened or emotionally hurt (eg. stealing a handbag off someone in the street, threatening their spouse with a weapon, stalking an ex-girlfriend or boyfriend)
    3. An offense that involves minor to moderate violence but is out of character and/or accidental (injuring someone in a pub fight, minor domestic violence, fleeing the scene of a car accident)
    4. A severe crime involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence but your relative fiercely proclaims their innocence (eg. rape, murder, armed robbery, child abuse)
    5. A serious crime involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence and it is apparent that your relative committed it (eg. rape, murder, armed robbery, child abuse)


    - How would you act?
    - To what extent you are willing to protect your loved one: passively (ie. not tell the police, feign ignorance in an investigation) or actively (ie. give false testimony, destroy evidence)?
    - How would you feel about your loved one asking you to help them?
    - If you turned them in and felt it was right to do so, would you still feel guilty about being disloyal?
    - If you turned them in, would you still visit them in jail and support them through the trial?

    Remember to think in context of those you really care about and be honest.


    For me in cases 1-4 I may give my loved one the option of turning themselves in first but if they wavered I wouldn't hesitate to go to the police and tell them everything I knew. To me, in all cases I feel no obligation to protect them and for them to expect me to do so is to break the bond between us; it is to ask me to cast aside the things I believe in most and is an attempt to exploit our close relationship for selfish gains; both of which are totally unacceptable to me. I probably still would try to support my family member through the trial etc depending on the crime. But if the crime was horrible enough it would make me reconsider who they are as a human being - if I feel that they have violated my faith in them entirely I would have to cut ties with them. I guess this is what I mean when I say I value ideals over people.
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  10. #50
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yes, won't it? Otherwise, you'd be loyal to everything and everyone, in which case it loses its meaning.
    What if the person you chose to be loyal to displays questionable or hurtful behaviour? Will you follow him on that track and defend him?

    Loving a friend, I think, means to point out his mistakes to him or even denounce him (in case of a crime) when he refuses to change and needs correction because this behaviour is leading him to destruction and also generates destruction around him.

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