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  1. #31
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Skylights, this is EXACTLY how loyalty feels for me. I hadn't really thought this through before this thread, but it is true that my loyalty is to the ideals of the situation and not to the people involved per se. And, I just realized that I was operating as if everyone had the same Fi sense of loyalties that I do. I think this is exactly what happened here... which is a bit heartbreaking to me because I care so much about the cause and about the people involved. I would never want anyone involved to assume that I was working against them. It's more like I assumed we were both working for the same thing... which had nothing to do per se with the people and more about the CAUSE.

    So given this, how would one approach such a situation in a way that didn't ruffle Fe feathers? How could I have supported the CAUSE without making the Fe user feel like I was attacking them. Suggestions are welcome.
    i know what you mean about heartbreaking! i've run into this with a good friend (ENFJ) before when assessing a group that she was leading. i commented on a negative aspect of it, just assuming that she would understand i meant it as a neutral observation for the sake of seeing where we could help fix it, and she took it as an insult to her leadership, which i never, never meant. i still do it accidentally sometimes... it really takes work to remember to be careful about it because i just don't naturally think that way.

    one way i've found of getting around this, which i have learned mostly from observing my mom (ESFJ), is to flatter the person you're talking to while offering neutral suggestions as a different way of getting the intended outcome, if that makes sense. so in this example, maybe like telling the guy how much you appreciate his work, how people are really excited about it, etc, but mention that something occurred to you, which is that maybe he would be able to reach even more people by extending his efforts out to women too, if he hasn't already considered that (which, given Pi, he may well have, and chose not to for a specific reason.) and if he says he'd rather not, then he'll probably explain his reasoning why, and you can either be in accordance with that or, if you still disagree, present your case for why you think it'd be beneficial.

    for me, it's been a big growing experience to need to shift myself to understand things in this light, but sometimes it's a much more effective system than the Fi-Te way of going about things. it feels a little disingenuous sometimes, but i try to think of it in terms of supporting and respecting the person while trying to change an outcome, instead of my conventional ideal-orientation. i think that it's hard to shift to people-loyalty, but when i'm thinking about my relationship with my best friend (ENFJ), for instance, i feel like i just have to "suspend" my own rules and be patient, and that's how i'm loyal to her. i know that she also has to do the same to put up with my more open temper and less interpersonal awareness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    I can feel extremely loyal to members of a team that I may belong to. This doesnt mean being nice-but rather working side by side to push forward towards objectives. When the work becomes overwhelming, part of that loyalty means that you step up and take some of their work-as much as is needed-without them having to ask.
    I dont really feel "loyalty" to those I am in close relationships with. Loyalty isnt the correct word. Devotion is a better word to use.
    i echo both of these sentiments

  2. #32
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    In terms of loyalty, I guess I feel like being loyal to a person feels a bit one-dimensional. People, even people I love and who are very dear to me, make mistakes. If I place my loyalty to them as individuals ABOVE my loyalty to the Fi truths I believe in, then I run the risk of betraying my Fi values in the name of fidelity to a lesser Fe reality. Does this make any sense at all?

    I'm not trying to put down Fe. I'm just trying to be honest with how it feels to me, the Fi-user. I think of my BFF who is an INFP. She and I are very close. We would do anything for each other. But the glue that holds us together is that we both believe in very similar Fi truths. I would never expect her to be blindly loyal to me in the name of her friendship. Nor would I be loyal to her just because she is my BFF.

    I would support her because I love her. And, because one of my Fi values is supporting the people you love. But if she violated one of my Fi values, I would - without hesitation - call her on this... as a way of being loyal to her. Because at least for my BFF and me, one of our most important ways of caring for each other is to provide honest feedback to the other if we observe the other straying from our mutual Fi value system. Attachment 5704
    I'm sorry, but I'm not really understanding why you're bringing Fe/Fi into this at all and differentiating between their two supposed different approaches to loyalty. I mean... basically what you're saying above is similar to what I think I wrote in my response - just that I'm not blindly loyal to anyone or anything. I don't operate that way.

    Am I misunderstanding a distinction you're trying to make between the two?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #33
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    To me this is not about our actual beliefs and feelings about The Cause so much as how we go about trying to make our goals come about. Fi tends to speak up when it feels it must out of conscience. Fe tends also stand up, but it does it differently, looking at how it can make a bad situation better. Fi sees this as selling out. Given the choice between being ignored entirely by going at the issue head on or trying for the best possible outcome while still remaining involved, it will choose the best possible outcome, recognizing that this might not go as far as it would like to eventually see things go. Fe is a function that tries to get the most accomplished that it can. It doesn't aim for perfection so much as what it can realistically make happen.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think many of us are intensely passionate about The Cause. But you can't accomplish The Cause when you don't know how to use power. Part of using power is knowing who's in charge and how to get to that person. It always comes down to working with people. Powerful people have big egos. You kind of have to top from the bottom until you get to the top.

  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've seen these contrasts between Fi and Fe reversed. I've often heard descriptions of NFJs being all about fighting for a cause and NFPs being more personally oriented. It mostly depends on where you get your information. The position in favor of that is that J is about acting on the world and P is about perceiving the world. I'm not saying that is what I think, but it is one element that makes the Fi/Fe discussion complicated and convoluted.

    Loyalty is a sensitive subject because every one of us has been hurt when someone has been disloyal. It is tempting to be able to label that pain as "other". We are in some way distinct from those who have hurt us. They are categorically different, and that makes us safer and more innocent.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #36
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    The second example in your OP just sounds like primitive goober guy male pack behavior, not Fe. It's an example of immaturity and misogyny more so than a case of Fe.

    Though...you're probably right, people with Fe are probably more likely to do that now that I think of it. Just not mature, well-adjusted ones.

  7. #37
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To me this is not about our actual beliefs and feelings about The Cause so much as how we go about trying to make our goals come about. Fi tends to speak up when it feels it must out of conscience. Fe tends also stand up, but it does it differently, looking at how it can make a bad situation better. Fi sees this as selling out. Given the choice between being ignored entirely by going at the issue head on or trying for the best possible outcome while still remaining involved, it will choose the best possible outcome, recognizing that this might not go as far as it would like to eventually see things go. Fe is a function that tries to get the most accomplished that it can. It doesn't aim for perfection so much as what it can realistically make happen.
    @bold 1: Sorry this isn't clear to me; Fi sees what as "selling out"?

    @bold 2: This sounds a little presumptive that the Fe outcome is the best possible outcome. That's a pretty subjective viewpoint.



    Fe is a function that tries to get the most accomplished that it can. It doesn't aim for perfection so much as what it can realistically make happen.
    Maybe the friction point is not so much Fe vs Fi but Fe vs Te here. Te will strive for what it can realistically make happen as well ..... perhaps it's the manner of working toward the goal that's more the rub. Fe will work the people, not question the ideas so much; Fi will not question the people as much as they will seek the most practical idea.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  8. #38
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think the best way I can explain it is to talk about Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Now bear with me for just a minute...
    The Allegory of the Cave

    In The Republic, Plato describes a group of people who have been chained to the wall of a cave their entire lives. They are chained in such a way that there is a large blank wall in front of them, and a fire behind them. This arrangement is important because it means that the people can only see shadows on the wall projected by objects that pass in front of the fire.

    The point of the story is that the people can't see the objects themselves, only the shadows these objects project. After a time, the people mistake the shadows for reality itself. They forget that they are only seeing shadows of reality which are a poor substitutes indeed.

    In this allegory, only philosophers can see true reality because in studying philosophy, a person can perceive a truth beyond the shadows. The relevant point here is that there are different kinds of reality. There is what we can see (the shadows or material manifestations of reality that we can see and touch), and then there is the highest form of reality which are the Truths (with a capital T) that project the shadows we (humanity is likened to the prisoners in the cave) see.

    At least to me (an Fi-user) this is a great analogy that explains how Fe feels to me. Fe feels like the shadows projected by my Fi Truths. (Again, note the capital T in Truths.)

    In terms of loyalty, I guess I feel like being loyal to a person feels a bit one-dimensional. People, even people I love and who are very dear to me, make mistakes. If I place my loyalty to them as individuals ABOVE my loyalty to the Fi truths I believe in, then I run the risk of betraying my Fi values in the name of fidelity to a lesser Fe reality. Does this make any sense at all?

    I'm not trying to put down Fe. I'm just trying to be honest with how it feels to me, the Fi-user. I think of my BFF who is an INFP. She and I are very close. We would do anything for each other. But the glue that holds us together is that we both believe in very similar Fi truths. I would never expect her to be blindly loyal to me in the name of her friendship. Nor would I be loyal to her just because she is my BFF.

    I would support her because I love her. And, because one of my Fi values is supporting the people you love. But if she violated one of my Fi values, I would - without hesitation - call her on this... as a way of being loyal to her. Because at least for my BFF and me, one of our most important ways of caring for each other is to provide honest feedback to the other if we observe the other straying from our mutual Fi value system. Attachment 5704
    Thank you for posting this.

    One thing I think you should know, though, is that I see this same picture, but with Ti close to the flame instead of Fi, and with Te watching the shadows on the wall rather than Fe.

    The biggest essential difference between us, is that I don't believe there are universal ethical/moral "truths." I believe that there are universally true principles that can be understood, but that they are impersonal and amoral. I believe that while impersonal truths exist independently of human perception/belief, that moral/ethical values are dependent on societies and human perception to exist. In other words, different societies can define morality differently, and live comfortably with very different ideas of right and wrong. Because they are only a function of the way the human mind defines "good" and "evil." It is our common agendas/goals which make things good or evil to us.

    In other words, I believe that truth exists independently of human perception, but that morality/values/ethics do not. Think about it... if there were no sentient life, morality could not exist or manifest. Which seems to lead to the conclusion that it does not exist independently, but is a set of moral ideals and beliefs that follow from our consciousness and interaction with one another.

    I see the universe as this vast, empty, impersonal system, with all matter and energy interacting according to impersonal rules, without consciousness. And this almost applies to lower levels of life... until their brain development reaches a certain point, and they become both self-aware, and aware of others. That is when morality and values are born.

    I think that in order to understand Fe, you also have to understand Ti. Ti is the reason that Fi doesn't make sense to Fe users.

    When an Fi user acts on their values in a way that affects others, the Fe user usually doesn't see what the Fi user sees. All we see is your shadow Te trying to impose rules that, to us, seems arbitrary and based only on your will. Because the Fi is invisible.

  9. #39
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Maybe the friction point is not so much Fe vs Fi but Fe vs Te here. Te will strive for what it can realistically make happen as well ..... perhaps it's the manner of working toward the goal that's more the rub. Fe will work the people, not question the ideas so much; Fi will not question the people as much as they will seek the most practical idea.
    Hmm...this confuses me a bit, but I've seen this sort of statement made in other places on here so my question isn't directed towards you per se, Peacebaby.

    Anyhow, I don't really understand why Fe-ers wouldn't question a bad idea. I mean, there are bad ideas galore out there - I'm all about rooting out bad ideas/decisions. I'll work with people and the organization as it exists (current Reality), but I don't really see how working with people and discarding bad ideas are mutually exclusive.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think PB must mean Fe doms, not INFJs.

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