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  1. #21
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [*]What constitutes loyalty?
    To me, loyalty is still being there for a friend even if you hit a rough patch. To me, it's the same in love and in friendship. You don't drop someone because of a disagreement. Loyalty is also being there when your friend needs you, as well as making the tough calls every once in a while. Such as knowing your boundaries on whether or not you need to step in a point out something for your friend, or whether or not something can be brushed aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [*]What is expected of those pledging friendship and allegiance?
    Loyalty in return. That means trust and comfort as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [*]If someone displays disloyalty, what is the appropriate response?
    It depends. I suppose it takes a lot for someone to really push my buttons. But keep pushing, and eventually I'll have my words on the matter with you and won't want you part of my daily life anymore. I'll still play nice at face value, if it's required, but I will no longer call you or respond to you after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [LIST][*]How loyalty is displayed and how such behavior is interpreted by [Fe/Fi].
    I suppose, to me loyalty is displayed in both actions and words. I'd lean more heavily towards actions. It took a long time for me to fully trust the loyalty of an ESTJ friend... and we've had a couple of falling out's with one another. However, now she's one of my best friends. She's finally learned to be kinder with her words, she's supportive, she goes out of her way for me, and basically has shown that she's always there for me no matter what. She used to be a bit too blunt and had no problem pointing out my flaws, even minuscule ones that didn't matter. Though I respect this with bigger things, she's learned to choose her battles and with the small things, she'll go along with me and be supportive of me or my nature now. haha. And believe me, I notice whenever she does it... but I respect her just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [*]Who has the right to express disagreement per [Fe/Fi]?
    Who has the right?? Anyone has their right to express disagreement. Everyone has their own agenda, be it to uphold a societal norm or an internal value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Please share your examples of when Fe and Fi have differing senses of disloyalty, loyalty, allegiance, and fidelity.
    Something I've noticed between me(Fi/Se) and my sister(Fe/Si), is that she's often more quick to pass judgment. But she's also more quick to make new friends and back up her friends. With me, though I might pass judgment, I often don't let that block my interactions... I allow people a second and sometimes third chance before I decide someone is unworthy of my time. My sister would make a quick judgment, even if it's the first time meeting someone, and then decide they aren't worthy of her time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Since these discussions can become very heated, let me remind everyone that this is intended to be a respectful and open discussion of these differences. Your comments, kudos, and criticisms, are welcome as long as you input is delivered in a kind and conciliatory manner.
    So feeler of you.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  2. #22
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    I have a system of "loyalty" for people in general. I have a personal ethic to not talk about people behind their backs in environments where they could be affected by the discussion. If I have an employer or coworker who causes me problems, I will talk to my family or fiance' about it, but not to coworkers. The closest I come to talking behind a back is discussing some family issues with family because there is an established common trust and concern. If I know the other person loves someone as much as I do and we are both worried about them, then there is discussion of mutual concern and problem solving, but I don't say critical hurtful things. I also feel strongly protective of the people I love, and the worst situation is when I can't act to help when someone has caused harm. I would go to great lengths to help.
    I can relate to this.

    To the OP, honestly I'm having a hard time with the concept of loyalty, because I don't really view things in this way - being 'loyal' to a group, or whatever. 'Loyalty' for whatever reason conjures up some sort of obligatory thing in my mind - like, a mindless thing, where once you're part of a group/team you're loyal to it no matter what. That just because I'm part of a group, I signed some sort of 'loyalty' paperwork stating that I would forever be with them. I don't really think, with groups (work-related, etc), there's a 'no matter what' clause for me. (And I'm not sure that's what's being said anyway, I'm just clarifying on my end). I'll support a group/idea if I believe in it, or if it's reasonable/logical, etc, but I won't support it just for the sake of loyalty if it doesn't make sense or I think it's not the way to go.

    But as far as generally being kind, not talking down to others, not gossiping or bringing someone's name down, and trying to communicate effectively - that's just generally how I try to approach everyone, and to me it's being a decent human being; I don't understand how loyalty has anything to do with that.

    As for my friendships and relationships, I am in them because there is a mutual connection and we both gain something out of it. I respect them, I want to help them if I can help, I want to build and nurture the relationship, and want the best for the other. If disagreements happen, they happen - after all, we're two separate individuals with distinct personalities. There aren't 'rules' as to how or when disagreements should be brought up, other than that I would 'expect' out of a healthy relationship that critiques/disagreements are raised in a respectful manner, to discuss, rather than to immediately label the other negatively. Simply sharing viewpoints to reach understanding. I guess... for me, because I have such a small circle of close friends, and don't really do the acquaintance thing, if someone is in my life, they're IN it, and on my end I will prioritize them and will value the relationship and all of that - so I am there for them if they need me. If that's loyalty, then that's loyalty!! Like I said, I've just never really used that term before. And, this person will continue being in my life until/unless we'd begin drifting apart or it became apparent to me that they weren't treating me well, etc.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    You are part of a group, and a decision gets made that you disagree with on principle, and it was a particular person's brainchild. Instead of talking to the person (or the group, for that matter) about it and giving them a chance to hear your view and change their own minds on the merits of your view, you organize a boycott?
    Wait, I didn't get the impression that she was part of the group that made the decision.

    Naturally, I would discuss it with the group first if I were before resorting to the boycott.

  4. #24
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    You are part of a group, and a decision gets made that you disagree with on principle, and it was a particular person's brainchild. Instead of talking to the person (or the group, for that matter) about it and giving them a chance to hear your view and change their own minds on the merits of your view, you organize a boycott?
    What? Ah no. I am not sure what I wrote that gave you that impression.
    If I was loyal to a cause that I discovered was hosting a ‘male only’ event…I would first seek understanding. I would not call the dude on the side. I would say in a meeting of all members… ‘help me understand this’. If, after careful consideration, I concluded the event was sexist in nature…yet the group did not see it my way and was going to proceed with the event as planned…I would remove myself from the group…and no longer contribute to the cause (ie: boycott).

  5. #25
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    awesome thread!!! I have to pack for a trip but I promise to come back in a day or two as these are really cool ideas!!!

    (Loyalty is huge for me. )

  6. #26
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ^ Loyalty is big for me too but to be honest I'm struggling to frame a specific definition of it. Its such a deep, unquestioned value in me that I'm not really clearly conscious of how I draw the lines. All I know is, I know it when I see and when I see a lack of it. I realise this is rather inadequate and probably is unfair on others but I find it hard to pin down such a big concept term. Its like asking "what is beauty?" or "how do you define cruelty?" :confused:

    I might have to think about this some more. Although it would help if more Fi users would contribute their definitions. I like aspects of the others Fe-users' descriptions but don't feel 100% on them...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #27
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i... am not a loyal person by nature. but don't get me wrong - i'm not a disloyal person by nature either. i'm just like... aloyal. to people, at least. the concept didn't really make sense to me for a long time, and it just isn't a frame of mind that i enter often. i have a hard time with conventional loyalty because a lot of it just really seems counterintuitive to me - blindly trusting someone, not speaking up when you feel like something is wrong, trusting a fallible human, etc. and shouldn't you just be generally nice to everyone, and not talk behind their backs as a baseline rule?

    but anyway, what i just realized in writing this, is that i tend to be much, much more loyal to ideals than to people. i understand loyalty to ideals, but it really alters the way my personal sense of loyalty works - i'm very, very dedicated to certain groups, but my loyalty is more to the ideals of those groups than to the people themselves. i feel like people are flighty, changing, make questionable decisions, and are not always good. ideals, on the other hand, are stable and detached. they're timeless, infallible, and don't change their minds.and overall, i don't like being loyal to people because i end up being torn in two directions - either being loyal to them or loyal to my ideals. because when it comes down to that, my own ethics are going to win out.

    my understanding of people-loyalty is less "devotion" or "consistency" and more "unconditional love". it's much less uncomfortable and much more intutitive in that light.

    - what constitutes loyalty?
    being willing to stick with something, or someone, especially despite potential negative impact on you.

    - what is expected of those pledging loyalty?
    equality. reciprocal loyalty.

    - if someone displays disloyalty, what's the appropriate response?
    depends on the situation. i think part of understanding loyalty as unconditional love is giving the other party the benefit of the doubt, and trying to assess what's going on, why it happened, etc. it's wanting to take care of the other person even though the situation is hurting you. that said, once they've broken the "contract", they've broken the contract. you have no responsibility to be loyal to them, even though it would probably be better to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    I'm not sure where loyalty even enters into the first case, [...] It sounds like it's more a matter of Fe language versus Fi language and being rubbed the wrong way.
    yeah... though i mean, honestly, if i were the head of an NGO and had worked really hard on this program, and an aquaintance called me up telling me why it was such a bad idea, i would probably be unhappy too.

    on the other hand, if EW feels similar to how i do about loyalty, then it would make sense that she was doing the best for The Cause, and it would be weird that he would get upset with her for trying to help The Cause. but if he thought, as Fe users tend to do, that the criticism was a reflection on him, and not the idea, then i can understand why such a thing happened.

  8. #28
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i... am not a loyal person by nature. but don't get me wrong - i'm not a disloyal person by nature either. i'm just like... aloyal. to people, at least. the concept didn't really make sense to me for a long time, and it just isn't a frame of mind that i enter often. i have a hard time with conventional loyalty because a lot of it just really seems counterintuitive to me - blindly trusting someone, not speaking up when you feel like something is wrong, trusting a fallible human, etc. and shouldn't you just be generally nice to everyone, and not talk behind their backs as a baseline rule?

    but anyway, what i just realized in writing this, is that i tend to be much, much more loyal to ideals than to people. i understand loyalty to ideals, but it really alters the way my personal sense of loyalty works - i'm very, very dedicated to certain groups, but my loyalty is more to the ideals of those groups than to the people themselves. i feel like people are flighty, changing, make questionable decisions, and are not always good. ideals, on the other hand, are stable and detached. they're timeless, infallible, and don't change their minds.and overall, i don't like being loyal to people because i end up being torn in two directions - either being loyal to them or loyal to my ideals. because when it comes down to that, my own ethics are going to win out.

    my understanding of people-loyalty is less "devotion" or "consistency" and more "unconditional love". it's much less uncomfortable and much more intutitive in that light.

    - what constitutes loyalty?
    being willing to stick with something, or someone, especially despite potential negative impact on you.

    - what is expected of those pledging loyalty?
    equality. reciprocal loyalty.

    - if someone displays disloyalty, what's the appropriate response?
    depends on the situation. i think part of understanding loyalty as unconditional love is giving the other party the benefit of the doubt, and trying to assess what's going on, why it happened, etc. it's wanting to take care of the other person even though the situation is hurting you. that said, once they've broken the "contract", they've broken the contract. you have no responsibility to be loyal to them, even though it would probably be better to.

    yeah... though i mean, honestly, if i were the head of an NGO and had worked really hard on this program, and an aquaintance called me up telling me why it was such a bad idea, i would probably be unhappy too.

    on the other hand, if EW feels similar to how i do about loyalty, then it would make sense that she was doing the best for The Cause, and it would be weird that he would get upset with her for trying to help The Cause. but if he thought, as Fe users tend to do, that the criticism was a reflection on him, and not the idea, then i can understand why such a thing happened.
    Boy, Orobas is right. This is really a very interesting thread. Thanks to all the responses so far! Let me start from Skylights answer and work backwards.

    Skylights, this is EXACTLY how loyalty feels for me. I hadn't really thought this through before this thread, but it is true that my loyalty is to the ideals of the situation and not to the people involved per se. And, I just realized that I was operating as if everyone had the same Fi sense of loyalties that I do. I think this is exactly what happened here... which is a bit heartbreaking to me because I care so much about the cause and about the people involved. I would never want anyone involved to assume that I was working against them. It's more like I assumed we were both working for the same thing... which had nothing to do per se with the people and more about the CAUSE.

    So given this, how would one approach such a situation in a way that didn't ruffle Fe feathers? How could I have supported the CAUSE without making the Fe user feel like I was attacking them. Suggestions are welcome.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #29
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    OH, and PS, I was wondering if these were good ol' boys, because that's what it sounds like to me, some good ol' boy shit, and I see you're in South Carolina, yes? Move north.
    Ha ha ha! I completely cracked up when I read this. I wouldn't say this was a Good Ole Boy thing... but I would say there was a bit of an "I've been a big fish in this small pond and no one has ever had the audacity to challenge me like this before" thing going on.

    I think that I'm coming to understand that loyalty is a concept that never meant a whole lot to me because I have always felt like loyalty implied throwing allegiance to a person / group of people and this paled in comparison to being loyal to the ideals a person / group of people cleaved to.

    Does this make me disloyal? I don't think so. I think (and I'm just beginning to sort this out so be forewarned that what I'm about to say is a work in progress) that I feel loyalty to principles and moral truths. It's sort of hard to describe, but I think the best way I can explain it is to talk about Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Now bear with me for just a minute...
    The Allegory of the Cave

    In The Republic, Plato describes a group of people who have been chained to the wall of a cave their entire lives. They are chained in such a way that there is a large blank wall in front of them, and a fire behind them. This arrangement is important because it means that the people can only see shadows on the wall projected by objects that pass in front of the fire.

    The point of the story is that the people can't see the objects themselves, only the shadows these objects project. After a time, the people mistake the shadows for reality itself. They forget that they are only seeing shadows of reality which are a poor substitutes indeed.

    In this allegory, only philosophers can see true reality because in studying philosophy, a person can perceive a truth beyond the shadows. The relevant point here is that there are different kinds of reality. There is what we can see (the shadows or material manifestations of reality that we can see and touch), and then there is the highest form of reality which are the Truths (with a capital T) that project the shadows we (humanity is likened to the prisoners in the cave) see.

    At least to me (an Fi-user) this is a great analogy that explains how Fe feels to me. Fe feels like the shadows projected by my Fi Truths. (Again, note the capital T in Truths.)

    In terms of loyalty, I guess I feel like being loyal to a person feels a bit one-dimensional. People, even people I love and who are very dear to me, make mistakes. If I place my loyalty to them as individuals ABOVE my loyalty to the Fi truths I believe in, then I run the risk of betraying my Fi values in the name of fidelity to a lesser Fe reality. Does this make any sense at all?

    I'm not trying to put down Fe. I'm just trying to be honest with how it feels to me, the Fi-user. I think of my BFF who is an INFP. She and I are very close. We would do anything for each other. But the glue that holds us together is that we both believe in very similar Fi truths. I would never expect her to be blindly loyal to me in the name of her friendship. Nor would I be loyal to her just because she is my BFF.

    I would support her because I love her. And, because one of my Fi values is supporting the people you love. But if she violated one of my Fi values, I would - without hesitation - call her on this... as a way of being loyal to her. Because at least for my BFF and me, one of our most important ways of caring for each other is to provide honest feedback to the other if we observe the other straying from our mutual Fi value system. FeFiTheCave.jpg
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  10. #30
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ^ Loyalty is big for me too but to be honest I'm struggling to frame a specific definition of it. Its such a deep, unquestioned value in me that I'm not really clearly conscious of how I draw the lines. All I know is, I know it when I see and when I see a lack of it. I realise this is rather inadequate and probably is unfair on others but I find it hard to pin down such a big concept term. Its like asking "what is beauty?" or "how do you define cruelty?" :confused:

    I might have to think about this some more. Although it would help if more Fi users would contribute their definitions. I like aspects of the others Fe-users' descriptions but don't feel 100% on them...
    I can be extremely loyal to a leader-if I feel they are pursuing the best path for the group. This loyalty means I will stand up and tell them when they have messed up and they can evealuate that and work to fix the issue. It ties in a lot of integrity/honesty/respect/trust/holding them to their word, types of values for me. It means I can rely on them to lead us in a way that embodies those idealistic values I have. So perhaps the person becomes an embodiment of the values? I had an ENTJ I worked for who I adored and was very loyal to.

    I can feel extremely loyal to members of a team that I may belong to. This doesnt mean being nice-but rather working side by side to push forward towards objectives. When the work becomes overwhelming, part of that loyalty means that you step up and take some of their work-as much as is needed-without them having to ask. Loyalty is about always being there as a resources and being dependable and making sure do what we say we will do. It also means that I may have to be harsh at times-as indy pointed out-draw boundaries and call out others who are not pulling their fair share or who have delivered results that hurt the rest of the team. It feels a bit like locking my arms with their arms and then pulling together to get the job done.

    I dont really feel "loyalty" to those I am in close relationships with. Loyalty isnt the correct word. Devotion is a better word to use. I am devoted to my children, to my SO, to my family. I am devoted to very close friends. It includes most of the above ideas about loyalty-but also includes a willingness to sacrifice myself if need be on their behalf. Like I have been given them as a gift to care for...

    Ideas..I dunno..loyalty to a cause I feel is justified, maybe? But that really isnt loyalty as much as tenaciousness. If it is worthwhile I will fight, literally fight, for the cause.

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