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  1. #11
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Nobody said that's where it would be decided. It would just be nice, I think, if I set up a series of plans and you know it was my idea, if you object to them after I've done all that work, I'd like to know why before you alert the team and set about to change or destroy what I did. It's nice not to be blindsided.

  2. #12
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Nobody said that's where it would be decided. It would just be nice, I think, if I set up a series of plans and you know it was my idea, if you object to them after I've done all that work, I'd like to know why before you alert the team and set about to change or destroy what I did. It's nice not to be blindsided.
    All I am saying is that the Wench's loyalty was to this cause...not to this individual....thus I see absolutely no betrayal like you indicated there had been.

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Public Disagreement Doesn’t Necessarily Equate to Disloyalty. A local non-profit in my area was starting a new series of events. When I heard that these were “men only” events, I hit the roof. After calming down a bit, I (an Fi-user) called the non-profit and gently expressed that I felt single-gender events were inappropriate for A, B, and C reasons. I was very conciliatory, kind, and gentle with my comments. Nonetheless, the person who started this series (an Fe-user) interpreted my actions as a personal attack.

    I’ve racked my brain for another way I could have done this without this person feeling attacked. Attacking or hurting this person was the furthest thing from my mind. I guess I just do not understand why disagreeing with an idea was equated by this Fe user as a direct volley at him. It was just his idea that I took issue with. And, I was very gentle in my suggestions that his idea be modified. <Sigh.> I concluded this friction was caused by differences in how Fe and Fi perceive loyalty… and somehow I had (unbeknownst to me) stepped into the Fe disloyalty zone.
    In that situation, I think that it would be reprehensible to show any loyalty towards the organizers of such an event. In my opinion, such a person is promoting sexism and backwards social values, and needs to be stopped for the good of society. That is probably what he thought you were saying, and it can only be offensive, because this person is aligned with those backwards values. That makes you enemies, but one should not be associated with people who hold such values in the first place, because doing so implies agreement with them. It seems most natural to align oneself with those who hold similar values, and against those whose agenda opposes yours.

    I have to say, though... I would have wanted to organize a boycott of the event, possibly even a protest rally with people holding signs and booing, calling the event sexist and unfair. Get the message out that people don't approve of what they're doing, and don't want a return to those kind of values.
    Loyalty Expressed Via Hurting Others. There was a guy. He was being a goober. And, I had to defend myself against his gooberishness. This was all done in the time honored tradition of women snapping back potential suitors for their own idiocy.

    Well, his best friend (an ENFJ and Fe dominant) with whom I’d been on pleasant acquaintance terms for almost 20 years, decided that he to be loyal to his friend he would “dis” me. I had done absolutely nothing to the best friend. Nonetheless, he went around trying to socially destroy me (this is not an exaggeration) by telling anyone who would listen what a horrible person I was... all in the name of being loyal to his friend.

    I was so hurt and baffled by the best friend’s behavior. In my mind, this was a private issue between me and the potential suitor. The friend had no right to get involved. He was mucking up any possibility of me and the potential suitor recovering from his tactical error. More importantly, the best friend had no justification to hurt me when I hadn’t done anything directly to him. When I asked another ENFJ to help me understand the dynamics here, he said to me, “Well, loyalty is not just about supporting the people you love. It’s also about hurting the enemies of the people you love.”

    I was floored. This is sooooo not the way I see the world. I’ve since come to understand that this fiasco might have been instigated by a display of Fe loyalty by the best friend. This same display of loyalty seem disloyal and immoral to my Fi sensibilities.
    That doesn't seem right to me. He had no right to denigrate you for something that was only between your ex-boyfriend and you, and which shouldn't have affected or involved other people. Now, in a similar circumstance... I might have told you that I couldn't associate with you anymore, because I didn't think my friend would appreciate it, but I wouldn't have gone around telling people how horrible you were. That's immature, in my opinion. In fact, if I felt some loyalty towards both of you, and wasn't sure which side was more justified in my own mind... I might even refuse to be friends with either of you after that, and say that I refuse to be a pawn in your personal battle, and state that it was selfish for the two of you to allow things to get to the point of compelling your former mutual friends to choose sides, rather than coming to some kind of compromise in private, in order to maintain the harmony for the sake of the rest of your social circle. In other words, I would be upset that you both allowed your personal issues to undermine the cohesiveness of the entire group.

    The reason I would attack the other person in the first case, is because I see their actions as harmful to society as a whole, meaning that I have a responsibility to do something about it, while in the other case, I consider it a personal matter between you and your boyfriend... one that I should have minimal involvement in. I may have to choose sides as to who I interact with, if there's too much tension between then, but I would be sad about the lack of harmony and consider the situation unfortunate.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    @ StarryKnights
    Right. That is precisely, exactly the problem.

  5. #15
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I'm not sure where loyalty even enters into the first case, unless the person who planned the event was a close personal friend of hers. It sounds like it's more a matter of Fe language versus Fi language and being rubbed the wrong way.
    Something Witty

  6. #16
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    @ StarryKnights
    Right. That is precisely, exactly the problem.
    I am a little embarrassed to admit this because I feel like I should know...but I don't really know what you mean here. I was just getting confused because you indicated that the Wench had betrayed this gentleman (if you can call him that) by not contacting him to give him a 'heads-up' with regards to her disdain for his idea. But I merely think of that as being a courtesy...not an outright betrayal...since everyone's loyalty is to the group...not each others feelings and sensitivities. This would hold true for me even if they were close friends that went way back. I guess I just can't imagine calling someone on the side and saying...tomorrow...I'm going to shoot down your idea...and then no decisions come out of that conversation. I just think when you join a group you need to get a little thicker skin. That's all.

    On a personal level though...I think A200's idea of a boycott is ideal.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I assumed there was some relationship there, or why would she care how he felt? Perhaps I read it wrong.

  8. #18
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I don't think you read it wrong--I don't think there was enough info there to begin with, really. But your scenario is the only one I can think of, too, where it would be a loyalty issue.

    I just sort of had the impression that she went to the guy, he was offended because she shot down his idea, however nicely, and she can't figure out why, so she figures it might be a loyalty thing. I think we'd need more evidence in this scenario to know the real deal.
    Something Witty

  9. #19
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Well...at least you guys actually read. OMG I'm kidding.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I am a little embarrassed to admit this because I feel like I should know...but I don't really know what you mean here. I was just getting confused because you indicated that the Wench had betrayed this gentleman (if you can call him that) by not contacting him to give him a 'heads-up' with regards to her disdain for his idea. But I merely think of that as being a courtesy...not an outright betrayal...since everyone's loyalty is to the group...not each others feelings and sensitivities. This would hold true for me even if they were close friends that went way back. I guess I just can't imagine calling someone on the side and saying...tomorrow...I'm going to shoot down your idea...and then no decisions come out of that conversation. I just think when you join a group you need to get a little thicker skin. That's all.

    On a personal level though...I think A200's idea of a boycott is ideal.
    You are part of a group, and a decision gets made that you disagree with on principle, and it was a particular person's brainchild. Instead of talking to the person (or the group, for that matter) about it and giving them a chance to hear your view and change their own minds on the merits of your view, you organize a boycott?

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