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  1. #71
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Yup, and this isn't at all insulting!!!

    I insult one person based on his vehement, ignorantly based, fallacious claims made against an entire personality type, to which I happen to belong. And yet since I happen to be specific in my attack, and he happens to be general, I end up getting penalized for it, and not he.

    :rolli:
    Kinda backwards aint' it?

    I wouldn't worry about it -- the mods probably don't want you to leave, just to stop.
    we fukin won boys

  2. #72
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ... you Americans very frequently when talking about religion here, completely seem to discount the fact that religious climates in other parts of the world are NOT the same as in America, and that the reasons/encouragements/discouragements regarding religious belief are very different in say, the very secular Western Europe, to those in any part of the USA.
    I do agree with that.

    Here, people believe AGAINST the grain. And, not being taught belief or very much at all in any detail about faith at school, save a glancing textbook familiarity with the major world religions (I remember my English teacher banging her head against her desk when trying to get a bunch of 16 year olds to analyze a poem - nobody could even make a start on it because the minimum background knowledge needed to understand the poem was a basic familiarity with Old Testament stories - nobody in the class even knew the story of, say, Lot and his wife being turned to salt, or Samson and Delilah), most of us who do find faith, find it independently, through our own searching, often much to our own surprise.
    I disagree with the first part. There is a helluva fight if anyone teaches religion in schools. And Bible knowledge has been out the window for a few decades here in the States. Teenagers are remarkably "dumber" about basic Bible knowledge than they used to be.

    However, there's still a heavy cultural push if you happen to live in a conservative area to "be a good person" and "go to church" and "learn the stories/Bible" there. That is where the training usually occurs... enforced by the parents. And those kids are thus also then immersed in a sub-culture where they are usually forced to comply with "groupthink" or be told they're wrong, religiously. So independent thought is not encouraged; instead, kids are fed "the right answers" and taught not to stray.

    We still do have a cultural holdover where "good people" go to church.... even if lots of people no longer go to church regularly. It was far more pronounced fifty years ago or so, when EVERYONE went to church whether they really believed or not or they'd suffer social criticism.

    But not in the schools. No Christianity in the schools, as formal teaching, except for groups run by kids that meet before or after hours (such as the morning prayer circles).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #73
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    again, i think bluewings points make a lot of sense if you're looking at ExTJs. religion seems like a great manipulative tool if you have a specific goal in mind.

    i don't see how Ne would have anything to do with this claim, though... Ne dominants seem to want the freedom to make new connections, so why would they randomly tie themselves to religion?

    unless they had some goal they absolutely needed to fulfill. but that's true with every type.

  4. #74
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Extroversion is a mechanism that defines the inner being by external standards. Jung even went so far as to argue (highly plausibly) that the extroverted tendency, if undiluted will self-efface in process of adjusting to the external situation.
    This seems uselessly theoretical. I highly doubt that it's possible for a person to be purely extroverted like that, although maybe it's possible in some mental disorder.

    Interestingly, a typical extrovert conformist will be compelled to pander to the whims of his audience, however, the EN will only do this as means to the end. If he does not have a sound inner being, his self-assessment will become corrupt and self-serving. He will look to win the praise of others not because he needs it like an ordinary conformist does, but to appease his own vanity. Just because it feels good.
    Again, no. Nothing about the definition of Ne necessitates this sort of behavior provided there's an absence of a "sound inner being." It's a non-sequitur. Your argument that the "malady of an extrovert" requires one to define the inner world vis-a-vis the external perceptions of those around him fails to take into account the multitude of ways to passively assimilate that kind of information. In general, I'd agree that the definition of extroversion is the tendency to define the inner in terms of the outer world -- but in the absence of a control mechanism in the form of introverted judgment, the exact sort of behavior you'd expect would vary wildly from individual to individual. "The environment" around someone does not necessarily equal "the perceptions of other people", and you're missing the fact that there's a vast amount of shit in the environment to draw into your inner world.

    You said elsewhere that "Extroverted Intuition is much concerned with making an impact on large groups of people." That premise is wrong. I think that's why Gabe, CaptainChick, and myself are so confused and slightly insulted by the suggestion.

    If you press me on the topic, I'd actually argue that it's more typical for dominant extroverted intuitive to invariably follow possibilities that lead far outside of convention. And that even if some kind of "malady of an extrovert" exists, it would present itself in an Ne as someone who capriciously starts and abandons still-born projects to follow up on new possibilities that lead nowhere. Basically a hyper-inflated, uncontrolled version of extroverted intuition -- but again, I'm not even sure if such a person can exist in such a state for any amount of time.

    I think at best your argument at best would work in a few mentally ill or vastly immature ENPs -- but even then, not always. In fact, I still don't see what necessitates this being an Ne trait over any other sort of extroverted function. I have no experience with ENPs gravitating to religion more than any other type -- and those who do seems to have motives that are beyond their psychological type.

  5. #75
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    ...
    Hit the deck!
    we fukin won boys

  6. #76
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    FINE. I'll respond to the OP (what a waste of time)
    As for you, I can see that you think this is just a game, and I regret even thinking of apologizing to you.


    How many points do I get for that maneuver?
    we fukin won boys

  7. #77
    Senior Member lazyhappy's Avatar
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    My dear sir, are you telling me that you, an ENFP, do not much care to be admired by everyone? That you do not much care to easily get what you want from people at the snap of a finger? That you are not excited by the idea of having your audience believe everything you say without knowing what you're actually saying? That you are not interested in having others think of you to be as magnanimous as Yahweh himself, yet let yourself behave like the Pagan Gods? (Cough Bill Clinton, he was of your breed).
    Quite steriotypical, huh? you are basing you assumptions off your own thoughts it seems. not all people of a type in the mbti are alike. every type differs in the percentage of each trait. The MBTI is a full of holes theory, and you are taking it far too seriously.

    For example of how one type differs, you seem to have Ni as your first function followed by Te (or atleast seem to have those functions moreso then me), for you seem to conclude things quite quickley and judge. Of course, i seem to be judging now but you are categorizing a whole group of people where i am only categorizing you.

  8. #78
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    I read some of your OP. Do you think the people we label as EN-P are religious zealots, or rather, that they simly look for relationships in concepts (Ne) and are expressive about their findings (E)? If that was the case, you would find that the people you label EN-P would be expressive about all conceptual frameworks that they've managed to organize life into. For most people, this happens to be religion only because that overarching structure is usually called a religious ideology. I've got my mental models that I carry with me; the deeper they get (Ne) the more I find overlap with Eastern religion and psychology (which is very similar to Eastern religions). If I'm feeling comfortable and extraverted, I might appear to be really zealous. Do I cling to my religion more than you cling to typology? Probably not.

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