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  1. #61
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    My dear sir, are you telling me that you, an ENFP, do not much care to be admired by everyone? That you do not much care to easily get what you want from people at the snap of a finger? That you are not excited by the idea of having your audience believe everything you say without knowing what you're actually saying? That you are not interested in having others think of you to be as magnanimous as Yahweh himself, yet let yourself behave like the Pagan Gods? (Cough Bill Clinton, he was of your breed).
    Yup, and this isn't at all insulting!!!

    I insult one person based on his vehement, ignorantly based, fallacious claims made against an entire personality type, to which I happen to belong. And yet since I happen to be specific in my attack, and he happens to be general, I end up getting penalized for it, and not he.

    :rolli:
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  2. #62
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Why did these men happen to be dominant Extroverted Intuitives and what does this tell us about Extroverted Intuition. Is it merely a coincidence that such behavior happened to be acted out by those two ENPs?
    Yes.

    I would think not. Ne, as I described in my ENTP profile easily adapts to the Intuitive patterns shared by the external environment. Thus because ENTPs are strongly in tune with the external perception itself, and perception itself is malleable, they can easily manipulate the external perceptions dressing them in any form they need them to be in. They naturally identify with the 'spirit of the time' and zestfully merge with it.
    The bold part is where you start to go off base. But I think on the other parts you're half-right.

    In my experience, it is true that ENPs are relatively in-tune with the external perceptions of themselves and people at large -- but merging with those perceptions? No way. Mocking it, maybe.

    Just speaking for myself: I am (generally) aware of how people perceive me, and I do manipulate it to my own ends. But that is not something I get kicks out of -- the most I do is construct an eccentric albeit competent aura so that people will leave me the fuck alone and not be too shocked by whatever outlandish things I think appropriate to say or do (which are usually just bizarre social experiments I conduct to study other people). Maintaining this kind of image takes minimal effort.

    Furthermore, unless a person is autistic or something, I don't think this is at all unique to ENPs. Most people, consciously or not, attempt to portray an image that suits their perceptions of themselves. Even you have a picture of freaking Spinoza as your avatar, no?

    The ENFP likely will embody the popular sentiments with a great sense of inner personal conviction appealing to the individual (Fi as slave to Ne), yet in reality there is nothing individualistic about what they said. It is means to the end of enticing the masses. The idea is radically collectivist almost by the essence of itself.
    The ENFPs I've known have embraced extremely unpopular ideas because their inner conviction easily trumps their need to "entice the masses."

    ENTP on the other hand will perceive the external situation as means to the end of achieving his impersonal goals. Much like the great Machiavelli. Religion is very attractive to both types as it offers ample opportunities to influence the masses and make a name for oneself. As religion is often identified with orthodoxy, and conventional society identifies virtue with orthodoxy itself. Thus to be normal and to be good mean the same thing without a doubt here.
    Well, I can be sort of Machiavellian, but in general I just don't care enough to embrace something I don't care about just to impress or control people. In fact, I don't find that impressing people or controlling people is in any way something I'm motivated to do.

    Any other ENP experiences and why these types gravitate towards organized religion. It should be noted that this has nothing to do with pursuing morality or higher purpose. It is all about exploiting the religious orthodoxy to appease one's vanity. Personal beliefs and ambitions are of ancillary importance to making an impact in the external world.
    No, no, no, no. There are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to start.

    First of all, I hate orthodoxy. Second of all, I hate religion. I'm philosophically agnostic, but in practice an atheist. Third, I hate orthodoxy. And I flaunt this attitude as much as I can.

    Like I said above, I probably flaunt this in part because it makes people think I'm weird enough that they just stop trying to properly socialize me... But also because I personally find it funny.

    Furthermore, I'd much rather gain recognition by genuinely earning it, rather than simply manipulating preexisting social structures and duping people into believing I'm more important than I really am. In fact, this whole discussion that it is some kind of fundamental drive for ENPs to live off the recognition of others is extremely strange -- I don't really care, as long as I have the opportunity to do what I want. It's true that I portray myself in a certain way (like most other human beings), but I do it for the opposite reason of gaining recognition: I want to minimize the arbitrary social demands placed upon me so I can say and behave as I please without any expectations placed upon me. It's mostly about escaping human-constructed control.

    This reminds me of an old Seinfeld scene that sums up my thoughts perfectly:
    YouTube - Kramer - Marriage is a man made prison

    I, personally, think you're vastly underestimating the Ne need to be free to follow their own creative impulses without society's harassment. In my experience, personal beliefs and ambitions are not secondary to making a contrived impact on society at large. And the idea of shirking beliefs in order to satisfy some vain need for attention and impact is one that I find extremely abhorrent, and the implication you make that this is something corollary to the ENP existence is somewhat insulting.

    And none of this is out of line from the (admittedly few) ENPs I know.

  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Yup, and this isn't at all insulting!!!

    I insult one person based on his vehement, ignorantly based, fallacious claims made against an entire personality type, to which I happen to belong. And yet since I happen to be specific in my attack, and he happens to be general, I end up getting penalized for it, and not he.

    :rolli:
    AdmiralBabe, I feel I must explain some things.

    His rhetorical questions may have seemed to be rather offensive in the "I thought all black people loved fried chicken" sort of way, but they were open questions never the less. A simple "no" to his silly question would be fine.
    As absurd as the pretense of his ideas may seem, he is being cordial and constructive about it. Your throwing profanities at someone is not the way to do things.

    If what he was doing really was an attack and an insult, then be the better person. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your response was indeed much more inflammatory than anything he's said, and it could have caused escalation. Don't make matters worse.

    I don't really suspect complaining about a situation where you were already deemed in the wrong is in your best interest.

    I am quite familiar with how a lot of user feels about BlueWing, but don't let it get the better of you and don't let it derail the forum.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 02-11-2008 at 03:17 AM. Reason: better'd
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  4. #64
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Just one question.

    If we sat down to talk about your worldview and then I have refuted your religious beliefs. Later you'd go to think the matter through thoroughly on your own and still be compelled to agree that your religious beliefs were false. Would you then abandon them?
    If that were the case, then yes, probably. But since my beliefs aren't based on 'reason' alone, then the argument against would have to convince me on more than one level in order for me to no longer feel there's any truth in them. Speaking solely intellectually I suppose you could say I'm closer to agnosticism than full-blown 'belief'; but since I'm a whole human being, composed of more parts than intellect alone, and I know that those other parts are far from agnostic, I don't call myself agnostic.

    My 'journey' as a believer has entailed sometimes a process quite un-native to me, but one which has comprised significant milestones, where I've gone away and thought matters thoroughly over and found that I've been unable to conclude anything other than that it was time to let heart rule head, and acknowledge that I believe in, say, transubstatiation, despite everything in my intellect telling me it can't be so. I fought most of my life against believing that - but I wasn't fighting a society or culture that told me I ought to - quite the opposite! I was fighting myself, because deep down I always did believe it, but was ashamed of it. Because culturally, socially and intellectually, I couldn't support it.
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  5. #65
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    In my experience, it is true that ENPs are relatively in-tune with the external perceptions of themselves and people at large -- but merging with those perceptions? No way. Mocking it, maybe..
    Extroversion is a mechanism that defines the inner being by external standards. Jung even went so far as to argue (highly plausibly) that the extroverted tendency, if undiluted will self-efface in process of adjusting to the external situation. We usually do not see this because our faculties are interlaced with one another on a manifold of levels. Or in other words, you just dont come across a pure Extroverted tendency, on some level its got to be inextricable from an introverted tendency.

    Though is the element of extroversion conformist by definition? Yes it is.

    Does this mean that because the ENPs are Extroverts, or have a letter E in their code they are by their nature conformists? No. For the sake of this point, it is best that we ditch the E/I dichotomy as used in MBTI in favor of something more accurately describing the case. What we have on one end of the spectrum is the tendency to orient around the external environment, and on the opposite the tendency to orient around the inner being.

    Sensation strongly gravitates towards the latter because it by definition depends on the external world. Extroversion does to a degree as well. However, it should be pointed out that Intuitive Extroverts rely on the mind much more than their senses. Therefore less on their immediate external environment. Thus, for this reason we notice that the ENs are much more individualistic than the ISs.

    Interestingly, a typical extrovert conformist will be compelled to pander to the whims of his audience, however, the EN will only do this as means to the end. If he does not have a sound inner being, his self-assessment will become corrupt and self-serving. He will look to win the praise of others not because he needs it like an ordinary conformist does, but to appease his own vanity. Just because it feels good.




    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Just speaking for myself: I am (generally) aware of how people perceive me, and I do manipulate it to my own ends..
    This seems to reinforce my statement above.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    But that is not something I get kicks out of -- the most I do is construct an eccentric albeit competent aura so that people will leave me the fuck alone and not be too shocked by whatever outlandish things I think appropriate to say or do (which are usually just bizarre social experiments I conduct to study other people). Maintaining this kind of image takes minimal effort...
    Good, then you probably have developed your introverted side to a considerable extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Furthermore, unless a person is autistic or something, I don't think this is at all unique to ENPs. Most people, consciously or not, attempt to portray an image that suits their perceptions of themselves. Even you have a picture of freaking Spinoza as your avatar, no?...
    Yes, that is the natural tendency of extroversion. The Extroverted Perception is different from Extroverted Judgment in the respect that it can joggle many masks at the same time, yet the Judgment is often tied down to one. Extroverted Intuition is more fluent than Extroverted Sensation because it does not get tied down to concrete, specific images. Thus, if very self-serving, the ENP can attain mastery of manipulating whatever images serve his purpose. They tend to excell as performers for this, among many other reasons, George Carlin is the case in point.



    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    The ENFPs I've known have embraced extremely unpopular ideas because their inner conviction easily trumps their need to "entice the masses."?...
    Yes, ENFPs with good introverted judgment.



    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Well, I can be sort of Machiavellian, but in general I just don't care enough to embrace something I don't care about just to impress or control people. In fact, I don't find that impressing people or controlling people is in any way something I'm motivated to do.."?...
    Aha..







    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    First of all, I hate orthodoxy. Second of all, I hate religion. I'm philosophically agnostic, but in practice an atheist. Third, I hate orthodoxy. And I flaunt this attitude as much as I can..."?...
    ENs generally dont like orthodoxy, they(unhealthy ENs) just pretend to to see how much of a rise they can get out of people.

    Like I said above, I probably flaunt this in part because it makes people think I'm weird enough that they just stop trying to properly socialize me... But also because I personally find it funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Furthermore, I'd much rather gain recognition by genuinely earning it, rather than simply manipulating preexisting social structures and duping people into believing I'm more important than I really am. In fact, this whole discussion that it is some kind of fundamental drive for ENPs to live off the recognition of others is extremely strange -- I don't really care, as long as I have the opportunity to do what I want. It's true that I portray myself in a certain way (like most other human beings), but I do it for the opposite reason of gaining recognition: I want to minimize the arbitrary social demands placed upon me so I can say and behave as I please without any expectations placed upon me. It's mostly about escaping human-constructed control...."?...
    Genuinely earning it, escaping human control to pursue your own person. Pleasant to hear all of this. Thats some good marks of a sound introverted judgment that is so painfully wanting in the two ENPs described above.



    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    I, personally, think you're vastly underestimating the Ne need to be free to follow their own creative impulses without society's harassment. In my experience, personal beliefs and ambitions are not secondary to making a contrived impact on society at large....."?...
    Yes, Ne is individualistic in its own right because its in affinity with the mind, yet unfortunately, when unsupported by introverted judgment succumbs to the typical malady of an extrovert. Not as much as ESs, but considerably still.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    And the idea of shirking beliefs in order to satisfy some vain need for attention and impact is one that I find extremely abhorrent, and the implication you make that this is something corollary to the ENP existence is somewhat insulting......"?...
    Only to very unhealthy ENPs. Yet my point was also that this is something they could excell at based on their natural talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    And none of this is out of line from the (admittedly few) ENPs I know.

    I'd agree, the first one was somewhat of an anomaly, the second is beginning to take a turn for the better. (This is without a doubt connected to him having left his church recently).
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    AdmiralBabe, I feel I must explain some things.

    His rhetorical questions may have seemed to be rather offensive in the "I thought all black people loved fried chicken" sort of way, but they were open questions never the less. A simple "no" to his silly question would be fine.
    As absurd as the pretense of his ideas may seem, he is being cordial and constructive about it. Your throwing profanities at someone is not the way to do things.

    If what he was doing really was an attack and an insult, then be the better person. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your response was indeed much more inflammatory than anything he's said, and it could have caused escalation. Don't make matters worse.

    I don't really suspect complaining about a situation where you were already deemed in the wrong is in your best interest.

    I am quite familiar with how a lot of user feels about BlueWing, but don't let it get the better of you and don't let it derail the forum.
    Actually, it is completely obvious that part of his intention is to piss people off.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Extroversion is a mechanism that defines the inner being by external standards. Jung even went so far as to argue (highly plausibly) that the extroverted tendency, if undiluted will self-efface in process of adjusting to the external situation. We usually do not see this because our faculties are interlaced with one another on a manifold of levels. Or in other words, you just dont come across a pure Extroverted tendency, on some level its got to be inextricable from an introverted tendency.

    Though is the element of extroversion conformist by definition? Yes it is.

    Does this mean that because the ENPs are Extroverts, or have a letter E in their code they are by their nature conformists? No. For the sake of this point, it is best that we ditch the E/I dichotomy as used in MBTI in favor of something more accurately describing the case. What we have on one end of the spectrum is the tendency to orient around the external environment, and on the opposite the tendency to orient around the inner being.

    Sensation strongly gravitates towards the latter because it by definition depends on the external world. Extroversion does to a degree as well. However, it should be pointed out that Intuitive Extroverts rely on the mind much more than their senses. Therefore less on their immediate external environment. Thus, for this reason we notice that the ENs are much more individualistic than the ISs.

    Interestingly, a typical extrovert conformist will be compelled to pander to the whims of his audience, however, the EN will only do this as means to the end. If he does not have a sound inner being, his self-assessment will become corrupt and self-serving. He will look to win the praise of others not because he needs it like an ordinary conformist does, but to appease his own vanity. Just because it feels good.






    This seems to reinforce my statement above.



    Good, then you probably have developed your introverted side to a considerable extent.



    Yes, that is the natural tendency of extroversion. The Extroverted Perception is different from Extroverted Judgment in the respect that it can joggle many masks at the same time, yet the Judgment is often tied down to one. Extroverted Intuition is more fluent than Extroverted Sensation because it does not get tied down to concrete, specific images. Thus, if very self-serving, the ENP can attain mastery of manipulating whatever images serve his purpose. They tend to excell as performers for this, among many other reasons, George Carlin is the case in point.





    Yes, ENFPs with good introverted judgment.





    Aha..









    ENs generally dont like orthodoxy, they(unhealthy ENs) just pretend to to see how much of a rise they can get out of people.

    Like I said above, I probably flaunt this in part because it makes people think I'm weird enough that they just stop trying to properly socialize me... But also because I personally find it funny.



    Genuinely earning it, escaping human control to pursue your own person. Pleasant to hear all of this. Thats some good marks of a sound introverted judgment that is so painfully wanting in the two ENPs described above.





    Yes, Ne is individualistic in its own right because its in affinity with the mind, yet unfortunately, when unsupported by introverted judgment succumbs to the typical malady of an extrovert. Not as much as ESs, but considerably still.



    Only to very unhealthy ENPs. Yet my point was also that this is something they could excell at based on their natural talents.




    I'd agree, the first one was somewhat of an anomaly, the second is beginning to take a turn for the better. (This is without a doubt connected to him having left his church recently).
    Didn't I tell you before that people don't neccesarily (or even usually) go crazy through the dominant process? There is no real logic to that assumption and according to Beebe, it's an assumption not at all reflected in his clients.
    Primitive or passive introverted judgement usually causes people to non-conform dogmatically, not anything at all like what you try to describe, and they usually non-corform for fun. This represents very well the actual example of a somewhat nutsy ENFP that I can think of: Clarence Darrow. He was wildly non-conformist, managing I think once to get to murderers aquitted basically on a "society's fault" premise. He never pandered, but he probably surrounded himself with only people who agreed with him.
    The thing is, Wing, if you actually believe that stuff you wrote, you'd make an awful therapist!! Telling ENFP clients that they need to introvert would be horrible advice, basically telling them to embrace escapism and intensive egotistical feeling.
    And why are EN_P's supposed to be doing this again? Oh, right because of thier 'vanity' (that you cooked up). Actually extraverted percieving alone is almost never concerned with its appearance.
    Why can't you just admit that this idea is wrong. Even if you still think it's logical, it's obviously not supported in real life. Do you have it in for EN_P's or something?

  8. #68
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I notice that most of the ENP members I've exchanged words with on this site had dogmatic religious beliefs. In my life I've come across several ENPs who professed to be religious zealots. Yet, I certainly had doubts about the sincerity and of their claim.
    I'm surprised. I would've expected this to be much more to do with something like Si (comfortability with the norm and with routine etc.), not Ne, which I would attribute to pure open-mindedness and possibility-considering. I'd expect Ne dominants and auxiliaries to be the most vehemently agnostic.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Tayshaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In America, the president can stand up on TV and talk about doing God's will. If the British Prime Minister or the French president were to do that, they'd be laughed off stage; NOBODY would take them seriously. They just wouldn't do that at all. There's nothing in the culture here that'd support it.


    Yes, Sarkozy talking about doing God's will in a public address would not only make people snicker here, but would lead to an outpour of caustic headlines, to comments about Carla Bruni, and to the belief that the president has lost his mind. Even very conservative politicians could not to this.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No, I didnt state anything like this, thats just your imagination playing tricks on you.



    Huh, my posts had something to do with MBTI, people? You're trying to look for practical implications of highly theoretical claims that were not intended.
    Psychological type was created for people, not for your personal entertainment. if you have an armchair theory that isn't true, why don't you just answer your own question instead of making hurtful remarks about a type?

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