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  1. #31
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    Organized religion could most likely appeal to any type for various reasons. An example is the ambiguity of religion that makes everyone fear an eternal fiery Hell. Some people will choose to believe it, others will not. But the point is, no one is truly sure it exists or not. Religion can make any type fear having an open mind.

    And with that said, I think religion is more likely to appeal to an N because of its abstractness. That combined with a need for definiteness would lead the NJ to become a religious fanatic, who would take the ambiguity and drive it to closure. I, as an NJ, however, am not particularly interested in religion for those reasons. If anything, religion interests me because the stories stimulate my imagination.

    The way I can most easily see Ne working its way into religion is using it as a way to manipulate a crowd (if the ENxP so chooses, that is). Case in point, Charles Manson and Jim Jones, who were/are very likely ENFPs.

    For all intents and purposes, a cult is simply a religion that hasn't been welded into a tradition. Jim Jones, however, used a traditional religion to start a cult.

  2. #32
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I notice that most of the ENP members I've exchanged words with on this site had dogmatic religious beliefs. In my life I've come across several ENPs who professed to be religious zealots. Yet, I certainly had doubts about the sincerity and of their claim.



    For one, I have an older ENTP 'friend' who holds a senior pastor position in his church. He always carries many masks and rarely lets the opportunity slip to coax the audience into believing that he is exactly what they'd like to see. The man always carries many masks and the way he manipulates them aroud is nothign short of a work of art. It is very common to see him interact with many groups of people simultaneously, leading each one to believe that he is a steadfast champion of their cause. He almost never knew where he stood, but of course, this noone, not even he himself was aware of! At the time he earnestly thought that he believed in what he was preaching, yet had no compunction about asserting almost the opposite the next sermon. Seemingly ignoring or failing to see the contradiction. Yet of course, even the most analytical of minds would have trouble pointing out his deceptive tendencies as he always managed to obfuscate them in dense walls of rhetoric and artistic expression. His claims were usually open to double or even triple layers of interpretation and when questioned he managed to skillfully maneuver his way out of the charges. On several occassions it took me over an hour of intense scrutiny to pin him down. And when pinned down, he infallibly succeeds at making the charge seem less grave or even endearing to the accuser. This, unfortunately, was the part where I was unable to call him on his bs as making quick value judgments is not my strong side.




    My other ENFP friend rocked the same show for 5 years. Professing to be a religious zealot at the outset, and completely lost his faith a few months ago. He had even stronger presentation skills than the former as he not only knew how to come in tune with the 'spirit of the time', but also he knew how to make his sermons endearing to the individual. Thus, this character managed to put up the presentation everyone liked irrespectively of its content or his personal beliefs. Those who have shown disagreement or displeasure were tamed momentarily, walking away feeling like they are the center of his life. Over a dozen of people could earnestly claim that they felt very special talking to him after the sermon even though he may never think of them again. Such people also would have forgotten their indignation at what he said, assuming it was something profound and extremely endearing. When in reality he uttered a thousand words having said nothing, only made the position he presented on stage seem different, yet at the essence it was the same damn thing. Afraid of being questioned? Yes, unlike the ENTP he lacked the sharp, quick-thinking analytical mind to contest people directly who challenge him, but he certainly loved to boast how he could equivocate around their questions and in the end they love him all the more for it.

    Why did these men happen to be dominant Extroverted Intuitives and what does this tell us about Extroverted Intuition. Is it merely a coincidence that such behavior happened to be acted out by those two ENPs? I would think not. Ne, as I described in my ENTP profile easily adapts to the Intuitive patterns shared by the external environment. Thus because ENTPs are strongly in tune with the external perception itself, and perception itself is malleable, they can easily manipulate the external perceptions dressing them in any form they need them to be in. They naturally identify with the 'spirit of the time' and zestfully merge with it.

    The ENFP likely will embody the popular sentiments with a great sense of inner personal conviction appealing to the individual (Fi as slave to Ne), yet in reality there is nothing individualistic about what they said. It is means to the end of enticing the masses. The idea is radically collectivist almost by the essence of itself.



    ENTP on the other hand will perceive the external situation as means to the end of achieving his impersonal goals. Much like the great Machiavelli. Religion is very attractive to both types as it offers ample opportunities to influence the masses and make a name for oneself. As religion is often identified with orthodoxy, and conventional society identifies virtue with orthodoxy itself. Thus to be normal and to be good mean the same thing without a doubt here.

    Thoughts?

    Any other ENP experiences and why these types gravitate towards organized religion. It should be noted that this has nothing to do with pursuing morality or higher purpose. It is all about exploiting the religious orthodoxy to appease one's vanity. Personal beliefs and ambitions are of ancillary importance to making an impact in the external world.
    The problem with this post is the same problem that I have with many of your posts. Your initial assumptions are not anything that a reasonable person should accept and therefore all of your conclusions are meaningless. For example in another thread you have stated that an ideal world consists entirely of INTP's and INFP's (or at least every person strives to be an INTP or INFP).

    Perhaps before you continue toward any more opinions of any MBTI type you should learn a bit more about people. Not simply read about them but talk with them and imagine what it is like to be them. Imagine what it is like to be another person that you personally know and try to empathise with the various struggles and victories that they have in their life. Do this with several different types of people. Once you have done this then reexamine the various axioms that you hold about people and determine if any of them should be modified.
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  3. #33
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    The problem with this post is the same problem that I have with many of your posts. Your initial assumptions are not anything that a reasonable person should accept and therefore all of your conclusions are meaningless. For example in another thread you have stated that an ideal world consists entirely of INTP's and INFP's (or at least every person strives to be an INTP or INFP).
    No, I didnt state anything like this, thats just your imagination playing tricks on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Perhaps before you continue toward any more opinions of any MBTI type you should learn a bit more about people.
    Huh, my posts had something to do with MBTI, people? You're trying to look for practical implications of highly theoretical claims that were not intended.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Organized religion could most likely appeal to any type for various reasons. An example is the ambiguity of religion that makes everyone fear an eternal fiery Hell. Some people will choose to believe it, others will not. But the point is, no one is truly sure it exists or not. Religion can make any type fear having an open mind.

    And with that said, I think religion is more likely to appeal to an N because of its abstractness. That combined with a need for definiteness would lead the NJ to become a religious fanatic, who would take the ambiguity and drive it to closure. I, as an NJ, however, am not particularly interested in religion for those reasons. If anything, religion interests me because the stories stimulate my imagination.

    The way I can most easily see Ne working its way into religion is using it as a way to manipulate a crowd (if the ENxP so chooses, that is). Case in point, Charles Manson and Jim Jones, who were/are very likely ENFPs.

    For all intents and purposes, a cult is simply a religion that hasn't been welded into a tradition. Jim Jones, however, used a traditional religion to start a cult.

    Well that makes a nice theory, but no. There actually is a survey out there of type representation in clergymen, but I don't take stock in those statistics anyway.
    I don't manipulate crowds, and I have no desire too. In fact, I usually dislike motivational speakers. Maybe you should stop thinking about all those imaginary ENPs you and bluewing cook up in your heads, and meet some of the real life ones.

  5. #35
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Maybe you should, Gabe...
    we fukin won boys

  6. #36
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Religion is highly instrumental at making a name for yourself and promoting whatever desire your whim shall command. Having rejected this, how do you plan on accomplishing that eventually? Don't you think its rather unwise to reject religion just because you dont agree with their spiritual teaching and ethics?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Let me dumb it down for you.
    lol...

    Extroverted Intuition is much concerned with making an impact on large groups of people. Religions have a powerful impact on society by and large. Want to influence people? Why dont you become a preacher. Come on, we all know you better than that; you're not really so naive that you actually think that in order to call yourself religious you actually have to believe in the things the Bible teaches.

    Being religious is also associated with having character. Want people to think highly of you? Tell them that you're religious.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    My dear sir, are you telling me that you, an ENFP, do not much care to be admired by everyone? That you do not much care to easily get what you want from people at the snap of a finger? That you are not excited by the idea of having your audience believe everything you say without knowing what you're actually saying? That you are not interested in having others think of you to be as magnanimous as Yahweh himself, yet let yourself behave like the Pagan Gods? (Cough Bill Clinton, he was of your breed).

    That said, doesnt religion seem enticing to you still?
    Anyone else see the irony here? I'm seriously asking -- does anyone else see it? The transparent irony... I'm not going to explain it until I'm asked 'cause BW is going to come up with any rebuttal he can, and I don't really feel like dealing what that bull right now.



    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    To disagree with this, it would seem to be to refute that your type is actually ENFP.
    I'm thinking Metalwounds sees it.
    we fukin won boys

  7. #37
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    BW: Coming to hasty conclusions based on your limited experience with ENP types is not going to aid your understanding of them. If you do not wish to understand them, as you proved when you taunted the first two ENPs to claim they were not religious, then what, might I ask is the purpose of this thread? If it is something other than to incense 1/8th of MBTIc's population, I am not aware.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    BW: Coming to hasty conclusions based on your limited experience with ENP types is not going to aid your understanding of them. If you do not wish to understand them, as you proved when you taunted the first two ENPs to claim they were not religious, then what, might I ask is the purpose of this thread? If it is something other than to incense 1/8th of MBTIc's population, I am not aware.
    I'm not upset at all. Seahorse doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about, but pretends to be an expert. I've found the whole episode to be quite amusing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #39
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Now for my own argument:
    Extroverted Intuition is much concerned with making an impact on large groups of people. Religions have a powerful impact on society by and large. Want to influence people? Why dont you become a preacher. Come on, we all know you better than that; you're not really so naive that you actually think that in order to call yourself religious you actually have to believe in the things the Bible teaches.

    Being religious is also associated with having character. Want people to think highly of you? Tell them that you're religious.
    CC is right BW... you're being ignorant.

    Perhaps your Ni doesn't allow you to see the many directions in which religion can aid us Ne people.

    Yeah, we can get the public on our side and push our ideas onto them... that's fine If our ideas coincide with what's in the bible.

    Mine, and presumably CaptainC's are in stark contrast, so obviously, our target audience WILL NOT, be the non-thinking zealots. This way, we're free to explore the other side. We emphasize our points using anti-religious verbiage. There are three camps pertaining to your (ridiculous... honestly) claim.

    Camp one: Zealots -- not interested to hear the other arguments, and when they do, they right them off as bullshit, or they misunderstand, because there's too much biblical clutter. A lot of people belong here

    Camp two: Agnostics -- they're not necessarily agnostic I just couldn't think of a better term; they just don't care one way or another they hear both sides of the argument, and maybe even put up their own. Most people belong to this group

    Camp three: Anti religious -- these are the people who, like the zealots will argue over every damn point, but will not budge for one reason or another. Very few people are here.

    Obviously, Captain Chick is not looking to even speak to the Zealots. They're dumbasses to her. If anything comes up where it's against god's will, they become furious. Furious to where they can't think clearly (as if they were anyway) and since CC's beliefs are probably a contrast to much of the the religious people have to offer and subscribe to, she's essentially cut them off.

    It's a catch 22 sort of thing. They excommunicate her, and she wants nothing to do with them, except perhaps to eliminate them (I dunno CC... I'm just guessing)... probably not by force. Since wording them into another mentality doesn't work, she doesn't bother.

    Now, because there are a much greater number of people who will open their minds a little (I didn't say they'd actually understand... they'll just hear you out and continue not caring enough to make a real decision) and she's got the smaller camp of the non-religious to market to, but she comes from a different angle, the more palatable sentiment is the non-religious.

    And before you rattle off your preferred response of "It went over your head" I assure you, it did not.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #40
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    What would you ever do if you eventually found out that you're not an ENTP?
    What would bluewing do if he found out he wasn't an INTP?
    What would a Neo-Nazi do if the found out they were jewish?
    I'm not, remember? I'm an ISFP.
    we fukin won boys

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