Higher levels of Te than Ti in an INFJ

[CuriousFeeling]

There's several things I can think of that could account for having higher levels of Te than Ti. Typically INFJ should have Ti as their tertiary function, but I find in my case I have a more developed Te than Ti. I'm wondering if this isn't due to being schooled in a science environment where following steps in a lab, searching for actual evidence to prove a hypothesis, looking for quantitative information that doesn't look at the subjective context to make an opinion, are crucial to science. I grew up in a household with ISTJ and iNTP parents. Now how I ended up with higher Fe in this environment is beyond me. I can understand how I would end up with higher Te having one parent with auxiliary Te.

I'm not complaining about having stronger Te, just I wonder how it got stronger than Ti. Usually INFJs under stress tend to create systems in their minds that might not necessarily have a practical application in life... kind of objectively analyze what is going on around them, become colder. I find under stress, I end up becoming much more irritable, bossy, fussy, and my patience levels go down. I end up disliking inefficiency even more... and want people to cut the b.s. Depending on the situation, I might end up becoming more or less emotional.

I still wonder if there might be other factors influencing higher levels of Te vs. Ti. I think I've already mentioned this before in another thread, but if anyone has information about this, I'm curious to see what you guys know.

Thanks!

-CF

 

[Eric B]

Te is the left brain alternative of Fe, so in some respects, they're more alike, such as "following steps" and such. It's the common "J" attitude. So it might seem to come out stronger than the tertiary.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Te is the left brain alternative of Fe, so in some respects, they're more alike, such as "following steps" and such. It's the common "J" attitude. So it might seem to come out stronger than the tertiary.

So it might be more indicative of wanting to organize the external environment based on Ni's visions of how the future could be, or how to arrange things to achieve Ni's vision. A desire for control over the external environment.

 

[Andy]

So it might be more indicative of wanting to organize the external environment based on Ni's visions of how the future could be, or how to arrange things to achieve Ni's vision. A desire for control over the external environment.

Yes, to a degree. A well developed shadow function usually plays a supporting role to the concious functions, as it is those that really motivate us. An INFJ will tend to express Te when it serves the needs associated with Ni or Fe. An example might be that the person needs cash to achieve some goal that appeals to Ni+Fe, so they temporally express Te concerns while organising their finances enough to get it. At the end of the day, it all comes back to the concious functions. That's why they are doing it.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Yes, to a degree. A well developed shadow function usually plays a supporting role to the concious functions, as it is those that really motivate us. An INFJ will tend to express Te when it serves the needs associated with Ni or Fe. An example might be that the person needs cash to achieve some goal that appeals to Ni+Fe, so they temporally express Te concerns while organising their finances enough to get it. At the end of the day, it all comes back to the concious functions. That's why they are doing it.

This is especially true when it comes to raising a family, or thinking ahead in supporting a family/household... you need to have enough funds to be able to pay bills, to feed and clothe people, to get decent health care, to get a car that lasts, to be able to send the kids off to college, and to save for retirement, and doing this without going over your head in debt.

Likewise, this applies with schooling/education. In order for the INFJ to achieve their goals to be in a particular career path, or for someone close to them to follow through in a career path, they will not only invest themselves in achieving that goal, but will emphasize getting outstanding test scores, getting good grades in coursework, and following through the steps necessary to become whatever career they or someone else desire to be in. I suppose it's the logical flow of thinking that getting good grades will maximize your chances of getting a decent career with decent pay that will support a family, and that planning everything on a day-to-day basis will help a household to run smoother, thus help achieve a desired outcome. Still, it's the Ni-Fe mindset of being concerned over the overall welfare and future of those close to the INFJ, and Te is being used as a support system to ensure the well-being of everyone in the household... even if it's hypothetical.

 

[skylights]

i forget who mentioned this, or where the theory is from... but someone in a fairly recent thread pointed out a theory that suggests that your level of introversion/extraversion can impact your tertiary - essentially being extremely introverted for your type could push your tertiary extraverted to make up for the lack of extraversion, and being extremely extraverted for your type could push your tertiary introverted to make up for your lack of introversion. if we're playing by that theory, and if Ni and Fi are your strongest functions, like it appears in your sig, then maybe your Ti is getting pushed into Te by your cognitive introversion to make up for the lack of extraversion in your other functions.

 

[Aquarelle]

I find under stress, I end up becoming much more irritable, bossy, fussy, and my patience levels go down. I end up disliking inefficiency even more... and want people to cut the b.s.

This is me as well. I don't know if my Te is more developed than my Ti, but I do tend to think more analytically and concretely than the typical INFJ, as well.

 

[sculpting]

Every INFJ I know is in engineering and science. So they all come across as very analytical folks to me. However-it is analytical with a very practical edge, compared to the NTPs and it gets annoyed by my Te abruptness-thus making it seem more Ti than Te.

So I dunno...perhaps Ti is still being used for analysis, but Fe uses Ti in a structured way-basically emulation of Te by Fe+Ti. Also-the INTJs will have a strong drive to actualize their Ni visions I suppose due to inferior Se. Could this also contribute to the externalization of the Ti analysis in INFJs? For instance, unlike an NTP, who might be content just to come up with an idea, an INFJ actually wants to take the idea and deliver upon it in reality, often motivated by some value investment?

 

[Poki]

Every INFJ I know is in engineering and science. So they all come across as very analytical folks to me. However-it is analytical with a very practical edge, compared to the NTPs and it gets annoyed by my Te abruptness-thus making it seem more Ti than Te.

So I dunno...perhaps Ti is still being used for analysis, but Fe uses Ti in a structured way-basically emulation of Te by Fe+Ti. Also-the INTJs will have a strong drive to actualize their Ni visions I suppose due to inferior Se. Could this also contribute to the externalization of the Ti analysis in INFJs? For instance, unlike an NTP, who might be content just to come up with an idea, an INFJ actually wants to take the idea and deliver upon it in reality, often motivated by some value investment?

I am curious if Fe just like Te isnt really big on stepping outside of its realm. Te being logic and Fe being feeling. Where as Ti and Fi functions are more likely to be applied outside of their realm in a unique, novel way to accomplish things.

 

[uumlau]

It is very easy to mistake an "analytical INFJ" for an INTJ. Te and Fe do address many of the same topics in similar ways, especially such as money and resources. The interesting part is that when one has the opportunity to delve down to a deeper level, one starts to find divergent motivations for very similar decisions, that the Fe motivations will be much more people-oriented (that people work well together, for example) and that the logic is more driven by a Ti need for consistency than a Te need for functionality.

There is a theory (and some controversy that doesn't seem to exist so much any more) that one's tertiary function is opposite in attitude to one's dominant function, not the same attitude. Thus an INTJ would have tert Fe and an INFJ would have tert Te. I think this theory arises from much these same observations, that in terms of behavior and results, both being very "J", they seem to be doing the same thing. I believe, however, that looking deeper one sees more of a Te/Fi or an Fe/Ti bent that determines whether one is INTJ or INFJ.

 

[highlander]

I have the impression there is some debate in the MBTI community as to whether the tertiary is in the same attitude as the dominant. Maybe it's not always consistent.

 

[Randomnity]

It's a really obvious question, but are you sure you're not a well-socialized (high Fe) INTJ? I could see both Fe and Te being encouraged by society, depending on your environment/peer/upbringing.

I think that often, only the first two functions are really clear and the tertiary becomes murky and intermingled with other functions. Plus function order is even less scientific than MBTI in general, which is saying something...

 

[Eric B]

The way I have come to see it is that a type preference is the dominant and auxiliary; and everything else is but reflections of those two. Whichever mode of processing is preferred; its opposite will collect lower in the rank. The dominant is the most preferred, so its opposite becomes the inferior. The tertiary is just whatever was rejected from the auxiliary.the aux is less preferred than the dominant, so its opposite is not as suppressed as the inferior, and falls into third place.

 

[Zarathustra]

I have the impression there is some debate in the MBTI community as to whether the tertiary is in the same attitude as the dominant. Maybe it's not always consistent.

This. This. This.

It amazes me how much people think that reality needs to fit the theory, as opposed to the theory needing to fit reality...

 

[sculpting]

I have the impression there is some debate in the MBTI community as to whether the tertiary is in the same attitude as the dominant. Maybe it's not always consistent.

yeah, the MBTI book wont really specify, but my instructor said most folks seem to see it following the dom. I havent seen any INTJs who seem to use Fe instead of Fi...they VERY obviously mimic Fe communication via Te, thus I tend to assume consistency and symmetry in the theory and that you are seeing INFJs mimicing Te. On the board you see many INFJs border on becoming offended at Tert Te displayed by ENFPs-thus making me doubt they commonly use Tert Te themselves.

Dont forget how strong, controlling and directive an ENFJ can be (in a good way ) -Fe can be structured, organized and goal oriented, so I'd hate to take those qualities away from Fe users and claim only Te can do those things. Seems a bit insulting in my book.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

It's a really obvious question, but are you sure you're not a well-socialized (high Fe) INTJ? I could see both Fe and Te being encouraged by society, depending on your environment/peer/upbringing.

I think that often, only the first two functions are really clear and the tertiary becomes murky and intermingled with other functions. Plus function order is even less scientific than MBTI in general, which is saying something...

I've wondered about this too. Usually I've considered other's needs by placing myself into their shoes, how I would like to be treated, and expect the same to be delivered to me. I think a lot of it roots back to when I was a kid and whenever I'd see kids picking on other kids, myself included, I decided to show an example of treating others with kindness and consideration, because if I wanted it for myself, I'd have to treat others the same way to gain their respect. As a child, I was quite imaginative, expressed my emotions, was quite blunt about what I thought about something, and had ideas of what I wanted out of the world that others didn't readily accept, or thought they were unimportant. Had a heck of a time working in group projects... often times I'd get frustrated that my ideas weren't accepted. I'd often get very temperamental because of it, and a lot of my teachers had a hard time understanding that I wasn't acting out my frustrations because I wanted to misbehave, rather I felt that my vision that I adamantly supported, was being rejected, and I was stubborn to see it through. Also, I was quite temperamental whenever kids would tease me... if it wasn't factually happening, then why say that it is true? Yeah, I was bookish, loved studying, and thought that my education was an investment for the future. Other kids didn't think being smart was cool, so I got flak for being the nerd. I thought intelligence was something to be proud of, likewise to have an imagination and to think about how your actions affect others was something I valued. I yearned for my peers to understand me. It wasn't until the 5th grade that one of my teachers worked with me to be less emotionally responsive whenever I'd feel frustrated.

When I was in high school, I went through a period where I felt very self-conscious... everyone goes through this process in high school, but it was in this stage of my life I felt more pressure to be more outgoing. I felt that my more sociable peers had it much easier to gain recognition, or to be able to get guys to fall in love with them. I felt that in order to compensate for the lack of social skills, I had to kind of put on an act that I was confident. I treated others with kindness and respect, but I was focused on what I wanted out of life, what I wanted out of my future, and I didn't like it when others stood in my way. I kind of got stronger in my last year of high school.

Whether this says I'm more NiFe, or NiTe, I'm unsure, LOL.


Was raised with both parents who were thinkers (NT and SJ) too, so that has a great deal of influence on how I plan out my life... more prone to Te tendencies from one of my parents who is an ISTJ.

So make of this what you will.

 

[Zarathustra]

yeah, the MBTI book wont really specify, but my instructor said most folks seem to see it following the dom. I havent seen any INTJs who seem to use Fe instead of Fi...they VERY obviously mimic Fe communication via Te, thus I tend to assume consistency and symmetry in the theory and that you are seeing INFJs mimicing Te.

I agree about the INTJs, but I don't agree about CuriousFeeling in this case.

I think she very well could just be using Te.

I think it could just be a case where she had to learn to use Te, for the reasons she stated.

I don't see Fe mimicking Te in the way Te mimicks Fe.

I really don't know whether the dynamic would work the same going both ways.

Dont forget how strong, controlling and directive an ENFJ can be (in a good way ) -Fe can be structured, organized and goal oriented, so I'd hate to take those qualities away from Fe users and claim only Te can do those things. Seems a bit insulting in my book.

Yeah, Fe can mimic that aspect of Te, but I don't think it can mimic the the in-the-lab aspect that CF's referring to.

Just like Te can mimic Fe to an extent, but it's not like it's any perfect copy.

We ain't nearly as good at all the Fe type stuff as the Fe users are.

We just follow along as best we can to make things run more smoothly and efficiently.

 

[sculpting]

Yeah, Fe can mimic that aspect of Te, but I don't think it can mimic the the in-the-lab aspect that CF's referring to.

Just like Te can mimic Fe to an extent, but it's not like it's any perfect copy.

We ain't nearly as good at all the Fe type stuff as the Fe users are.

We just follow along as best we can to make things run more smoothly and efficiently.

I do disticntly see ISFJ men act like ISTJ men-almost like the social Fe norm for them is to mimic that behavioral set...

Hmmm, I dunno, I really dont. I spent several years in the lab as have many of the feelers I know. ISFP, ENFPs, INFJs, ENFJs, INFPs on down the line....hehe, the funniest lab manager I ever had was an ENFJ ex-nun. She was awesome, but in retrospect would become morally offended over buffer contamination issues. All of these folks could be very analytical and scientific. With respect to scientific customers, I'd say the Principal investigators I see are about 50% ENTPs, 10% INTJs, 10% INTPs and 20% INFJs with the last 10% mixed (LSR scientists). The INFJs can be very analytical and very good at grant writing and planning...

but actually so can the entps and intps-is the assumption that they use Te to accomplish those tasks but use Ti for science? yeah I dunno, messy stuff separating the emulation of functions from the micro-usage of shadow functions.

 

[Jaguar]

It amazes me how much people think that reality needs to fit the theory, as opposed to the theory needing to fit reality...

Well, what was the point of posting all those cog process tests - giving me a headache?
The cog process test has some underlying assumptions built in. Surely you right-clicked on the test and looked at the source code. The processes are not being tested independently. For example, an Ni score can be adjusted up or down depending on how you answer an Se+Fi question. The results of the test can be misleading.

I always score highest on Ni, but does that really mean I'm a Dom Ni type? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? I came to this forum to discuss theory, not rubber stamp people with labels that are more than likely inaccurate to begin with.

I'll bring up Katharine D. Myers since her last name should be familiar to everyone.
The tert function can be expressed in either attitude. It's not written in stone.
Therefore an INFJ using Te isn't "unusual."
Furthermore, many type professionals believe the tert to be the most flexible of all so one could actually flex Te-Ti interchangeably.

In the booklet, Introduction to Type® Dynamics and Development
Exploring the Next Level of Type, Myers writes:

The tertiary function of a type will be opposite the auxiliary function. The tertiary can be expressed as either an introverted or extraverted function.

That's why all the type diagrams in her booklet don't specify a direction for the tert function. Myers hierarchy for INFJ:

1. Ni
2. Fe
3. Te or Ti
4. Se

If anyone is interested in buying the booklet, they can do so here:
http://www.capt.org/catalog/itmdtl....u=30030&WT.tx_e=v&WT.tx_u=1&pnum=30030&bhcp=1

People can also view many of the inside pages at that link, as well.

Edit: I forgot to tell you - I agree with your quoted statement.

 

[uumlau]

I agree about the INTJs, but I don't agree about CuriousFeeling in this case.

I think she very well could just be using Te.

I think it could just be a case where she had to learn to use Te, for the reasons she stated.

I don't see Fe mimicking Te in the way Te mimicks Fe.

I really don't know whether the dynamic would work the same going both ways.



Yeah, Fe can mimic that aspect of Te, but I don't think it can mimic the the in-the-lab aspect that CF's referring to.

Just like Te can mimic Fe to an extent, but it's not like it's any perfect copy.

We ain't nearly as good at all the Fe type stuff as the Fe users are.

We just follow along as best we can to make things run more smoothly and efficiently.

Then the question would be whether CF understands Te the way a Te-user understands Te. That's where the disconnect comes from: Te and Fe "emulate" each other very well, because both "act J." But at the core, there is an understanding - at the Ni-level, for example - of how things "really work."

INTJs can be polite, but they don't understand how to deal with people on the fly, intuitively understanding what is needed. Symmetry would indicate than an INFJ can understand logistics and logistical reasoning, but would have more difficulty dealing with logistics on the fly, intuitively understanding how the logistical entities work.

Using Ni with Ti works, of course, but it is a very different dynamic: it solves logic (even logistical) problems, but it is far more methodical, and not "seat of the pants."