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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #71
    Glycerine
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    There's a good example of communication problem I encounter with Ne users sometimes. We say a similar point but it gets convoluted and lost in translation through our different ways of articulating. There have been many times where it seems like there is a full-fledged debate but after awhile both parties realized that they were saying the same thing.

  2. #72
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    ^^ This made me want to go insane!!!!!!!! The first time he redefined Fe in mid discussion and then said well we never really had a good definition anyways, then promptly changed a whole theoretical approach....I was filled with eye popping frustration!!!!!!!!!! WHAT??? If the definition isnt exact-what the hell are we actually talking about then? We actually had several convos were I was totally getting bent because this sort of thing kept happening. I pin things down with Si then hop with Ne. I think he pins things around an Se focal point then swaps whole rule sets in and out with Ni. (Thats freaky shit btw) So he will take my Si pin points and then pull them out from under me and replace them-if it is an FiSi point-I get a little prickly.

    I suspect it is not obvious because most of the time people dont get to "see" Ni in action-only the resulting Te judgment. Once I understood that no definition, rule or law was sacred and all were subject to temporary swapping and shifting-I chilled out. It required me to relax my Si understandings-and allow for the swapping to occur, as well as detach any emo FiSi I have to particular ideas.

    However with INFJs and ENFPs-we both have value based attachments to our mutual perspectives. So if I lock down their perspective with Si or they Ni context swap my Si perspective, you would expect to see escalating value based conflicts.
    Hmm, this is interesting. It never occurred to me that other people didn't swap different systems in and out. So you look for the perfect definition and then build your matrix of ideas from there?

  3. #73
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    These "frames of reference", they don't half sound like things that come from outside the person. And "switching frames" sounds like some cheap surface trick. It doesn't match what I understand myself to do. I layer meaning.

    Frames of reference are for other people. "If YOU look at it this way, you'll see what I saw."



    Suck an egg, apologists. Switching contexts and frames doesn't indicate where the supposed depth of Ni comes from other than by making us recordists of frames. And is that what you do?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #74
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    I covered a fair bit of group here regarding Ni/Ne conflicts and the resolution of these: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...teraction.html

    Of course its all a conundrum of Pi-Je versus Pe-Ji which can sometimes jive but sometimes can't

    In effect the Pe gets annoyed because the Je asks for boundaries and structure in the external world; The Je gets annoyed because Pe insists upon ignoring those boundaries.

    The Pi gets upset because it sees the Ji as being unwilling to consider their viewpoint; the Ji gets upset because they see the Pi as being 'too situational' in how they define themselves.

    When you have this Pi-Je versus Pe-Ji interction the will to shine moves in one direction. Ji is the most dogmatic and will use Pe to force it's own opinion to be heard continually until it is accepted. The Pi feels that unless it continually structures its environment via. Je which the Pe picks at then the internal definition is under attack.

    It's important for the Pi-Je to be willing to allow the Pe-Ji to be able to see their inner motivations (a difficult thing with anyone at the best of times) to appear as honest and to allow the Pe-Ji to respect their boundaries and why they are set at certain positions. Similarly it is important for Ji-Pe to be willing to talk the internal language of the Pi-Je (as Pi is flexible!) to understand why those boundaries exist in the first place; because once the boundaries are understood miscommunication can be avoided or announced to avoid offence.

  5. #75
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    Sorry my post above is abstract; unstructured and likely to cause a migrane to the reader.

    As a Pi-Je user once confronted by a problem or a scenario I shift my internal perspective to match the task at hand. I then judge the scenario based upon what with my limited knowledge and experience is the best perspective to consider how to judge my environment and to attempt to change the environment to protect that internal perspective in way which is a fixed response. If the Ji-Pe user understands those fixed responses and how to deal with that they can find Pi-Je to be lovely and sweet, otherwise the Pi-Je user will feel like the Pe is basically pissing over their wants and needs.

    By the contrary the Ji-Pe user always has an internal defining monologue of ideas and theories which are fixed when approaching any situation. However external perception then allows them to vary their external response to test the environment and to challenge if it is following their fixed internal goals. If the Pi-Je user is able to directly communicate with and respect the internal goals of the Ji-Pe and share it's own inner motivations then the later will not feel the compulsion to continually attempt to grapple with the boundaries of Pi-Je to see whats 'inside' as it were.

  6. #76
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    These "frames of reference", they don't half sound like things that come from outside the person. And "switching frames" sounds like some cheap surface trick. It doesn't match what I understand myself to do. I layer meaning.

    Frames of reference are for other people. "If YOU look at it this way, you'll see what I saw."



    Suck an egg, apologists. Switching contexts and frames doesn't indicate where the supposed depth of Ni comes from other than by making us recordists of frames. And is that what you do?
    *shifts perspectives*

    Are we explaining Ni or are we explaining how Ne and Ni conflict?

  7. #77
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    *shifts perspectives*

    Are we explaining Ni or are we explaining how Ne and Ni conflict?
    *engages multiple frames of reference*

    Can't have one without the other.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #78
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    *engages multiple frames of reference*

    Can't have one without the other.
    *adapts to multiple frames of reference*

    Ni and Ne aren't always in conflict so aren't the negative meet points solely relevant?

  9. #79
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo"]Ne/Ni conflicts[/YOUTUBE]

  10. #80
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    *adapts to multiple frames of reference*

    Ni and Ne aren't always in conflict so aren't the negative meet points solely relevant?
    *becomes confused, grasps wildly at possibilities*

    If "frames of reference" are present in "Ni" more by virtue of an accompanying extroverted judgment structure than by virtue of Ni itself, um, something, something, mumble mumble. Gasp! Look, a butterfly!

    Ne already has an objectivity built in. And... OMG! MORE BUTTERFLIES! DID SOMEONE LEAVE A WINDOW OPEN!?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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