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Ne/Ni Conflicts

rav3n

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*becomes confused, grasps wildly at possibilities*

If "frames of reference" are present in "Ni" more by virtue of an accompanying extroverted judgment structure than by virtue of Ni itself, um, something, something, mumble mumble. Gasp! Look, a butterfly!

Ne already has an objectivity built in. And... OMG! MORE BUTTERFLIES! DID SOMEONE LEAVE A WINDOW OPEN!?
*Te steps in to organise*

Positive meet point, butterflies = irrelevant.

Negative meet point:
Ni/Te = who cares who left the window open, let's get back to the subject matter of conflict.
Ne/Ti = everything might possibly matter. Don't reject what might factor in. The window has been pinned into slot x1b7h3. Notice how the window is open 4" wide? Maybe Ralph left it open since by my calculation, he only has the height to push it open 4" although it might possibly be Allie, since she's tall but really weak. But Allie's been working out lately so her arms and shoulders might be stronger. Speaking of, I've started a new routine at the gym. It's fantastic for your entire body. Too bad I can't get up the energy to go to the gym on a regular basis. Routines bore me......
 

Poki

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Thie biggest conflict i see is Ni limiting Ne expansion of thought. There are 2 reasons that I see this causes conflict. One is that sometimes Ni is right which I can see the Ne person saying ok, but other times Ni gets stubborn and this is what can cause a huge conflict. Both are a limiting factor in relationships with one having more of an impact then the other.

Honestly another strong Ni thats not stuck in this mindeset needs to be present to correct this hard headedness that can cause the biggest issues between Ne and Ni ;)
 

sculpting

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There's a good example of communication problem I encounter with Ne users sometimes. We say a similar point but it gets convoluted and lost in translation through our different ways of articulating. There have been many times where it seems like there is a full-fledged debate but after awhile both parties realized that they were saying the same thing.

This happens to me and the intj all the time. :) Me: I think it is X, Y, and Z..... Him: well, actually *talks for awhile* it's X, Y, and Z. Me: That's what I said? *giggles* It is hysterically funny to be honest and even endearing, ONCE you figure out what is going on.

Hmm, this is interesting. It never occurred to me that other people didn't swap different systems in and out. So you look for the perfect definition and then build your matrix of ideas from there?

Hmm, I suspect that different Ne users will due this different ways. Thus the subsequent confusion and frustration points encountered will differ depending upon the judging functions that differ. I will write up a bunch of specific example and post else where as to not clutter the thread. But the way I approach new subjects has a few steps:

1. I have to have an Fi interest of some sort

2. I build a huge 30,000 ft overview of the subject. This involves gathering as many sources of info as possible on the subject and reading them all, but in a shallow quick way. I am looking for common themes throughout the sources-disregarding differences between the sources for now. I am seeking the gist of the topic, defined as a reoccurant pattern over the course of research. I also will seek root authoritative sources preferably and not rely on interpretations.

3. I build a very broad outline of the subject-I am building my own generalized context free knowledge base of the subject-perhaps a generic context/generic frame. In my mind this is a framework of boxes, suboxes, all categorical-Te boxes I presume. I dont need to know what is in each box in detail-only where to find the box should I need that information later and how it connects to the other boxes.

4. Because the same information (pattern) is repeated over and over again throughout the sources-the basic, top level backbone/framework of my boxes, and the sub boxes, becomes very certain and is considered to be the most statistically likely truth. It will be hard for one person's opinion to modify this backbone-although I am totally cool with tweaking it or discussing potential alterations. This backbone is what I call "Si" but really is me recalling my Ne patterns through the lens of Si, I presume.

5. The entire time I am using Ne to make the connections that form the backbone-but once built the real fun begins as I can begin filling in the details of the backbone with new connections. I can make huge Ne leaps by connecting this backbone to other topics that I have also built backbones for.

6. The backbone becomes generalized rules that are most likely to be true no matter what specific situation i apply them to. A TeSi rule might be "It is never allowed to speed in a school zone". An FiSi rule might be "I dont want to have a pitbull dog around children". For me-I need to be certain they are about applicable 80% of the time, before I feel comfortable.

7. When a specific instance arises the generalized rule will be brought up in my mind-then I adapt it on the fly with Fi typically to the very specific, unique, individual circumstance in front of me. Perhaps it was okay to speed in a school zone this time-because there was a fire and it was a fire truck. Perhaps this family is very safe with a pitbull as they spent a great deal of time training it and understand the innate needs of the breed. If I dont have an 80% certainty in my backbone-they anything I use NeFi to craft in the moment is very prone to error and internally I am very loathe to share as I know it isnt trustworthy, even as a suggestion.

So I dont need a specific definition (although I suspect the INTPs may), but I do need my generalized backbone. In step 4 above, this is where an Ni dom can throw me off-they swap out pieces of my backbone. This leaves me leaping from Ne point to Ne point....Cakes have layers...onions too...:) Cant do much with random Ne connections without a backbone to use for verification.

Once the backbone gets discarded the Ne-Ni convos can be tons of fun, but they sort of wobble off into outer space as I make Ne leaps and then each new Ni site gets Ni swapped, then I Ne leap again. The convo-wobbly-weaves all over the place so as long as you have no specific topic or perspective (or point :) ) to adhere to, you can have quite a good time.
 

Poki

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Once the backbone gets discarded the Ne-Ni convos can be tons of fun, but they sort of wobble off into outer space as I make Ne leaps and then each new Ni site gets Ni swapped, then I Ne leap again. The convo-wobbly-weaves all over the place so as long as you have no specific topic or perspective (or point :) ) to adhere to, you can have quite a good time.

The fun part :yes:
 

sculpting

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Oh that's actually a bunch of Ne doms having a convo with the ESTJ I used to work with *giggle*. In spite of the lack of complete sentences-there is actually content being exchanged. :) Lots of "Oh,, yeaaahhhh, I get it...hey where'd you get that magnet???? ooohhhh, that's so awesome...so i dunno i disagree on point four though...


Okay this is the outside of my brain:
Slide1.JPG

This is the inside of my brain:
Slide2.JPG

You guys cant see the stuff in pink, only the external stuff so we appear short sited-because you dont see what we have built already.
 

Poki

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Oh that's actually a bunch of Ne doms having a convo with the ESTJ I used to work with *giggle*. In spite of the lack of complete sentences-there is actually content being exchanged. :) Lots of "Oh,, yeaaahhhh, I get it...hey where'd you get that magnet???? ooohhhh, that's so awesome...so i dunno i disagree on point four though...


Okay this is the outside of my brain:
View attachment 5653

This is the inside of my brain:
View attachment 5654

You guys cant see the stuff in pink, only the external stuff so we appear short sited-because you dont see what we have built already.

I cant get past the fact that he looks like his nose is running and he hasnt wiped his upper lip in a while. Hopefully he doesnt spit when he talks or that would be really nasty.
 

highlander

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Oh that's actually a bunch of Ne doms having a convo with the ESTJ I used to work with *giggle*. In spite of the lack of complete sentences-there is actually content being exchanged. :) Lots of "Oh,, yeaaahhhh, I get it...hey where'd you get that magnet???? ooohhhh, that's so awesome...so i dunno i disagree on point four though...


Okay this is the outside of my brain:
View attachment 5653

This is the inside of my brain:
View attachment 5654

You guys cant see the stuff in pink, only the external stuff so we appear short sited-because you dont see what we have built already.

Good pictures. I know the two processes (Ne and Si) are somewhat inseparable but it seems weird for an inferior function to be a backbone though.
 

Lady_X

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Get into a relationship with an INTP and have a fight or two. It's like nothing you've ever experienced before. Imagine Godzilla arguing in Japanese about how best to roast coffee while you're talking about feelings!

hahahaha...i don't know know what the hell you're talking about but that shit is hilarious!
 

Lady_X

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i don't think i have an issue with ni at all really. i always score high on it in cognitive functions tests. it might even have something to do with me being a 6 wing...it feels like it kinda...
 

Lady_X

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I'm always in these "versus" threads realizing what an ENFP I am. I don't know why I ever question my type.

i know right!? haha you're an enfp...just deal with already girlie!
 

highlander

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hahahaha...i don't know know what the hell you're talking about but that shit is hilarious!

i don't think i have an issue with ni at all really. i always score high on it in cognitive functions tests. it might even have something to do with me being a 6 wing...it feels like it kinda...

i know right!? haha you're an enfp...just deal with already girlie!


:laugh: That's Ne.

EDIT: Or Se
 
Last edited:

Lady_X

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Wouldn't that be the type's well known need for "uniqueness"? (can't fit into the "boxes") Never could believe you were INFJ.

For an ENFP, Ni is "backup" to the dominant Ne, so it might be somewhat strong, if that is what you have been getting thrown off by.

i've never heard that! what do you mean by that? we are so instinctively intuitive that we first use ne than ni? that makes sense kinda...but what were you saying?
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't really relate to the Si aspect of Ne types that some describe here, or in the way I understand it anyway. For instance, when interacting with ESTJs IRL, I pretty much want to shoot myself. I don't get their way of seeing or judging at all; it's easily the most foreign to me of all the types. That's why I don't buy the neat little theory that sharing the same cognitive processes, regardless of order, increases ease of communication. I communicate way too well with ENFJs for that to be true. I can get along with ISTJs quite well, but I still find their thinking foreign.

Hmm, this is interesting. It never occurred to me that other people didn't swap different systems in and out. So you look for the perfect definition and then build your matrix of ideas from there?

As far as I'm understanding this, no, but then I am Ne-aux and not dom, so there's a lot more Fi happening. I start with a multitude of ideas, inspiration let's say, and then weed out that which does not suit what I've deemed most important, and what is most important tends to emerge with the process of considering ideas. I don't define it from the get-go; I just "know" it when I see it. I think when you're a P type, this is where the random aspect comes in; it's not a linear, constructing process. It's much more exploratory & fluid.

I do look for consistency in the ideas when building a concept. If one idea is inconsistent with many that show promise, then I toss it. I'll revisit that idea if things change, which they do, so I reevaluate a lot.

Occasionally, I do get stuck on an idea I see value in, and it's painful for me to let it go when I see it won't work; I see this as my inferior Te stepping in to tell FiNe to get back to earth :D. I'm not sure about this whole familiarity aspect. I almost always like to consider something new, even if I don't take it seriously yet because I have not determined its significance. Instead of seeing it as a "swapping out", I'll just see it as another option. I like to consider new for the sake of new, and find sicking rigidly to current definitions too confining. Frankly, I find TiSi users more likely to be the theory gestapo when it comes to definitions :X. You'll find NFPs using "creative" use of language for instance, something I've seen make INTPs cringe.

I do understand that for communication's sake, if you're re-defining a concept, then it's important to let people know that when you're talking about it so they can follow you :D.
 

InvisibleJim

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I don't really relate to the Si aspect of Ne types that some describe here, or in the way I understand it anyway.

You are 100% correct, the dominant Ne users will have Si as their Animus/Anima subconscious inferior position and bundle a whole lot of confused issues in there which we may never know; your equivalent would be how you view Te users, which is a superbly contrasting position from Si. With (probably) Si in the tertiary (Jung disagrees) you will use it as relief and an escape hatch from awkward situations.

But yes, both the Ni and Si dominants have this gradual situational internal perspective shift which can look very unusual to a dominant Ji like yourself as it is more akin to a gradual evolution of opinions through experience but without the instinctive deliberation you may see in how you chose what you view as the right way to live, think and do.
 

Kalach

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*Te steps in to organise*

Positive meet point, butterflies = irrelevant.

Negative meet point:
Ni/Te = who cares who left the window open, let's get back to the subject matter of conflict.
Ne/Ti = everything might possibly matter. Don't reject what might factor in. The window has been pinned into slot x1b7h3. Notice how the window is open 4" wide? Maybe Ralph left it open since by my calculation, he only has the height to push it open 4" although it might possibly be Allie, since she's tall but really weak. But Allie's been working out lately so her arms and shoulders might be stronger. Speaking of, I've started a new routine at the gym. It's fantastic for your entire body. Too bad I can't get up the energy to go to the gym on a regular basis. Routines bore me......

I know, right, freaking irrelevant possibilities. At length. Why are they relevant? That is my question. Or perhaps a far better question would be why are they irrelevant to me. Is there some legitimate evaluation that classed all those Ne tangents (and lengthy expositions) as irrelevant, or is my evaluation based more on protecting my own processing?

*sigh* It's the latter.


I wonder why people keep thinking conflicts are essentially solvable. Goddamn every person everywhere believes they have some kind of answer, BUT THEIR ANSWER IS ALWAYS BASED ON THEIR OWN FOUNDATION! How can it not be? Can a person come to a conclusion based on someone else's cognitive processes?

Once again, a claim I read somewhere: groups of people of similar type will operate more happily and finish group projects faster than type dissimilar groups, but type-dissimilar groups (potentially, and perhaps in fact often) produce higher quality results.


Uh oh. I wonder what type-dissimilar meant there. Duals or people with formally conflicting functions?
 

Poki

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I wonder why people keep thinking conflicts are essentially solvable. Goddamn every person everywhere believes they have some kind of answer, BUT THEIR ANSWER IS ALWAYS BASED ON THEIR OWN FOUNDATION! How can it not be? Can a person come to a conclusion based on someone else's cognitive processes?

By reading a book nd giving an example of someone else. 2+2=4. Anyway, my foundation is google alot of the times, so yes it is possible to base it on someone elses cognitive process. Its called regurgitation of situations, stories, etc. Now if you want to give your own personal answer to each and every problem, then no its not possible.

Once again, a claim I read somewhere: groups of people of similar type will operate more happily and finish group projects faster than type dissimilar groups, but type-dissimilar groups (potentially, and perhaps in fact often) produce higher quality results.

I will argue with the faster part, if you put a a group of similiar types on a project they might not even finish it at all. Its called sidetrack and is very easy for a group of similiar types to lead each other astray, be perfectly happy, and not give a dang.

Anyway did you do that on purpose or do you just not consider it an answer?

on a side note, you guys are fun to argue with :) You dont get as huffy and puffy as other types and when you do its usually short lived.
 

Kalach

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By reading a book nd giving an example of someone else. 2+2=4. Anyway, my foundation is google alot of the times, so yes it is possible to base it on someone elses cognitive process. Its called regurgitation of situations, stories, etc. Now if you want to give your own personal answer to each and every problem, then no its not possible.

Are there times people don't give their own personal answer? (If looking up other people's styles and trying to use them is one's personal style, then using other people's style is your own personal style too. Damn chameleons.)

If there are times people don't insist on their own personal answer (granted a very broad definition of "personal" including chameleon personal), aren't they giving less to the situation than is enough to make it meaningful to them. And if it actually were an important question, they'd give their "personal" answer, wouldn't they?

I will argue with the faster part, if you put a a group of similiar types on a project they might not even finish it at all. Its called sidetrack and is very easy for a group of similiar types to lead each other astray, be perfectly happy, and not give a dang.

Really? Even groups of Js? Let's assume work teams then, and in that case there's some structure imposed on the work from outside: deadlines, set goals, etc.

Anyway did you do that on purpose or do you just not consider it an answer?

What an answer? That people could gain an at least intellectual appreciation of other people's functioning and make room for it? Dude, we're both introverts. We both know people are supposed to do what WE say. The extroverts will gain an intellectual appreciation of our processing and make room for it only if we launch a revolution. Otherwise they're just too loud and keep looking in the mirror for confirmation.
 

Poki

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Are there times people don't give their own personal answer? (If looking up other people's styles and trying to use them is one's personal style, then using other people's style is your own personal style too. Damn chameleons.)

If there are times people don't insist on their own personal answer (granted a very broad definition of "personal" including chameleon personal), aren't they giving less to the situation than is enough to make it meaningful to them. And if it actually were an important question, they'd give their "personal" answer, wouldn't they?

Im lost to the method you use to be a chameleon. With me its based on a storehouse of concepts where I apply the concepts of what other people say and do to the current situation. No looking up is required. They are my own personal understandings of what people say so I can chameleon it into a different context. No effort goes into chameleoning people. Its all natural, 100% organic.



Really? Even groups of Js? Let's assume work teams then, and in that case there's some structure imposed on the work from outside: deadlines, set goals, etc.

Ahhh...now you make it personal.

Once again, a claim I read somewhere: groups of people of similar type will operate more happily and finish group projects faster than type dissimilar groups, but type-dissimilar groups (potentially, and perhaps in fact often) produce higher quality results.

This could easily be an answer to a question, your cognition isnt within the answer, so you are using "someone elses" cognition as the answer, your cognition merely linked the 2 together. Sorry, just because you regurgitate, doesnt give you the "cognitive" skills of the whole. Getting nit picky here, we introverts always have to be right you know ;) So does your cognition think that its a valid statement without your own cognition putting "limits" on it.
 
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