User Tag List

First 253334353637 Last

Results 341 to 350 of 376

Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #341
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Te
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thisica View Post
    So you mean we're always up in the clouds? Seriously...it can't be that bad, can it?
    I don't think mature INTJs really have that problem, but some of the younger ones certainly do. If you visit INTJforum, you'll see very many INTJs who absolutely refuse to acknowledge anything which isn't part of their "personal understanding."
    You lose.

    _______

    RCOEI
    Melancholic-Choleric
    Respectful Leader

    Johari Window|Nohari Window

  2. #342
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Now, you wanna get real analytical? I was trying to be nice there, and get you out of your own world for a moment, because you're simply not getting what I'm saying. Adam Savage's catchphrase is supposed to be a joke, after all, not a way of life - though if you want to use it that way, feel free. Just don't expect us to accept you for it.

    Isn't Ni supposed to be good at seeing the unseen behind the bare sensory data?
    Nope.

    Given a brief break while the eyes glaze over it's very good at replacing the seen with the unseen.

    What part of that is incompatible with listening and figuring out what's meant, be it consciously or subconsciously?
    The introverted part. It's not extroverted.

    For example, let's take a look at what you previously wrote:

    First of all, let's look at the juxtaposition of the two thoughts. The Ni-targeted thought dismisses what you seem to believe is important from an Ne perspective,
    Yeah.

    Because, goes the theory behind the question seeking confirmation, if an Ni person genuinely does focus on the outside world, they *halt* intuitive processing and commence sensing.

    while the Ne-targeted comment asserts that the rest of us are clearly silly for not seeing the "substance" in reality.
    Or the Ne people are silly for seeing too much substance in reality, don't forget that possibility.

    You may object that this is not what you intended, but guess what - that's what you said.
    Si replaces reality too.

    So, it strikes me as just a mite hypocritical to jump on me for "extolling the virtues" of extraversion. Or is that kind of consistency too "restraining" for you?

    I'll put it this way - it's not that you know something without proof. That's perfectly fine; I get those kinds of hunches all the freakin' time. The issue is that you're seemingly proud that you don't "need" proof. And then, when the rest of us call you out for being full of shit, you hide behind the supposed esotericism of Ni, instead of owning up to the idea that you might be wrong on the subject, instead of admitting that the conception "works for [you]" and 99% of the time has no basis in reality, and pointing to that 1% as reason that we should bow to your overweening intellect.
    Need a tissue?

    So, when I say "listen to others," it's not because I believe extraverted perception is the end-all, be-all of things, it's because those people know a hell of a lot more about the world as they conceive it than you do from your own perception. Your Ni will always be deficient if you don't have fuel to work with, and that fuel is the way others perceive the world. So, for crying out loud, listen!
    Nu-uh, girlfriend. It's weird and stupidly humble, and ultimately extroverted, to default to assuming that what other people know is more valuable than what I develop for myself. I am guaranteed to insist there is something behind the presented reality, something bigger, more connected, more "real". I am therefore guaranteed to diminish the importance of what other people say directly unless perhaps they surprise me by drawing a bigger, clearer picture of what I was already interested in.




    Introversion.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #343
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Funny how people do that, isn't it? "My way is the right way, because it's my way."
    Not really.

  4. #344
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Nu-uh, girlfriend. It's weird and stupidly humble, and ultimately extroverted, to default to assuming that what other people know is more valuable than what I develop for myself. I am guaranteed to insist there is something behind the presented reality, something bigger, more connected, more "real". I am therefore guaranteed to diminish the importance of what other people say directly unless perhaps they surprise me by drawing a bigger, clearer picture of what I was already interested in.




    Introversion.
    Not to derail too much, but doesn't Te inform you though? It can't be merely a volitional function.. or is it? It must be opening up your perspective to other ideas somewhat? And if it doesn't, then how could you use it?

  5. #345
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Nope.

    Given a brief break while the eyes glaze over it's very good at replacing the seen with the unseen.


    The introverted part. It's not extroverted.
    Yah, no. You have a very warped perception of what introversion means.

    Yeah.

    Because, goes the theory behind the question seeking confirmation, if an Ni person genuinely does focus on the outside world, they *halt* intuitive processing and commence sensing.
    Also, no. It's just collecting information.

    Or the Ne people are silly for seeing too much substance in reality, don't forget that possibility.
    Except that what happens in external reality has a demonstrable effect on the observer. Or have you never taken drugs of any kind, psychoactive or not, before?

    Si replaces reality too.
    How would you know?

    Need a tissue?
    Nah, more of a break.

    Nu-uh, girlfriend. It's weird and stupidly humble, and ultimately extroverted, to default to assuming that what other people know is more valuable than what I develop for myself. I am guaranteed to insist there is something behind the presented reality, something bigger, more connected, more "real". I am therefore guaranteed to diminish the importance of what other people say directly unless perhaps they surprise me by drawing a bigger, clearer picture of what I was already interested in.




    Introversion.
    Except that as far as I am concerned, you don't actually exist, unless I accept the validity of external reality.

    You really want to go in the solipsist direction? There's nothing to be found there.

    If you really want to take it to the extreme, why not go do something that most people would be instantaneously fatal? Clearly, the power of your towering perception outweighs those external constraints the little people have put on you, so there should be no harm whatsoever.

  6. #346
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You really want to go in the solipsist direction? There's nothing to be found there.
    I really couldn't disagree more. This is how NTPs often fail to make marked impacts in the world, they can miss that their own inertia changes the world as they move through it. The extroverted flavour is the worst at this because they particularly dislike introspection, the introvert flavour introverts the problems but never looks at the self and the agenda. You can't build a castle on sand.

  7. #347
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I really couldn't disagree more. This is how NTPs often fail to make marked impacts in the world, they can miss that their own inertia changes the world as they move through it. The extroverted flavour is the worst at this because they particularly dislike introspection, the introvert flavour introverts the problems but never looks at the self and the agenda. You can't build a castle on sand.
    How do you define a "marked impact on the world?" Also, it all reduces to neutrality once you're dead, assuming there's nothing beyond (which is the only position that we could agree on with any respect for the validity of another's beliefs while remaining true to one's own). So, if you continue down that solipsist path, all you get to is that the world was created when you were born, and ends when you die, so really, what's the point? Bully for you and your internal truth, but that truth ultimately gets reduced to meaninglessness.

  8. #348
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    How do you define a "marked impact on the world?" Also, it all reduces to neutrality once you're dead, assuming there's nothing beyond (which is the only position that we could agree on with any respect for the validity of another's beliefs while remaining true to one's own). So, if you continue down that solipsist path, all you get to is that the world was created when you were born, and ends when you die, so really, what's the point? Bully for you and your internal truth, but that truth ultimately gets reduced to meaninglessness.
    So nihilist and thus intrinsically solipsist at the same time. Reductionism is our friend. What you might realise is that doing something positive such as setting up a business (which I haven't done) or completing a major project (which I do on occasion) unlocks net happiness in the economy leading to more happiness for myself as a consequence. The effects of these actions always resonate.

    When you are debating with NTJs do remember that we are somewhat Will to Power. We are, we affect our world. Tough.

    Reductionism coupled with pragmatism leads to such ethics and the seeing the positivity in them.

    A failure to integrate the net effects of our actions leads to a disenfranchised individual.

  9. #349
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    So nihilist and thus intrinsically solipsist at the same time.
    You set up the playing field; I'm just playing.

    Reductionism is our friend. What you might realise is that doing something positive such as setting up a business (which I haven't done) or completing a major project (which I do on occasion) unlocks net happiness in the economy leading to more happiness for myself as a consequence. The effects of these actions always resonate.
    Right, but if the only locus of meaning is one's own determinations, then all of this is extinguished upon death, if there is no afterlife, or if the virtues of the afterlife render the virtues of the temporal life utterly meaningless.

    When you are debating with NTJs do remember that we are somewhat Will to Power. We are, we affect our world. Tough.
    I may know it, but I don't have to accept the premises as valid. Our type is all about the wille zur macht as well, but through subversive means.

    Reductionism coupled with pragmatism leads to such ethics and the seeing the positivity in them.

    A failure to integrate the net effects of our actions leads to a disenfranchised individual.
    Ah, but then, how do you make the distinction between positivity and negativity?

  10. #350
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You really want to go in the solipsist direction? There's nothing to be found there.
    (Heh, I picked on this one, and then saw Jim did too.)

    It's not solipsist, that's the thing. Just introverted. Subjective. The question of how cognition in an introverted attitude is not moribund is a good one. Jung's answer was that balancing functions appear. But it remains true (aka, theory sez) that cognition in an introverted attitude is mental working that, at a minimum, rejects immediate structuring that would otherwise be drawn from the external world. The cognition spirals off on its own path and generates its own structuring. And every one of us is familiar with this because every one of us does it to some extent. The answer to why all that is normal, capable, and productive, and not (automatically) solipsist, is found in some proper discussion of what it is to have and/or be a product of a dynamic system of mutually interdependent cognitive functions. Somewhere in that discussion would be some description of one or the other of how the same activities are performed (and transformed) by different functions in different people and how all people use the same functions to do the same thing regardless of their supposed function order and strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Not to derail too much, but doesn't Te inform you though? It can't be merely a volitional function.. or is it? It must be opening up your perspective to other ideas somewhat? And if it doesn't, then how could you use it?
    While a person on an Ni jag is spiralling off into his own warlock world, Se is still there gawping at the surroundings and believing everything. There's something about Se being present as an unconscious foundation for the conscious functioning of Ni that means introversion isn't just introversion, and no Ni is pure Ni. Jung said as much when he spoke of pure functions. He said something along the lines of, the purest, best expression of the rejection of objectivity is the null, and a most fundamental rejection of subjectivity would be the complete, exact and essentially personless mirroring of the external world.

    Something about unconscious functioning.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

Similar Threads

  1. What's the difference between Ne/Ni doms and Ne/Ni auxiliaries?
    By Esoteric Wench in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-16-2012, 02:10 PM
  2. Pictorial Guide to the Ne/Ni Distinction (the pics in no particular order this time)
    By Mal12345 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 08-26-2011, 05:02 PM
  3. Se, Si, Ne, Ni ( HOBBIES)
    By liYA in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-01-2010, 09:15 AM
  4. Ne/Ni Jungian Cognitive Function Interaction
    By InvisibleJim in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 09-28-2010, 02:56 AM
  5. Explanation for SJs dislike of change [Si vs Ne/Ni/Se]
    By Snow Turtle in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-23-2008, 06:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO