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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #291
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    ^ only if introverts are best defined as failed extroverts.


    Everyone is going to have to get over their distaste for subjectivity. Introverts, hear me! Your processing is largely subjective. This is not a flaw. You are good at it. What you produce is real.


    Extroverts, get over yourselves. You use subjective processing too. If you keep insisting on objectivity, you're playing directly into your own biases and harming your future ability. Do you, for instance, wish to say that introverted judgment is failed extroverted judgment? That you might in fact wish to say this does explain a lot of the stupid things you do, but you arrived at some such behavior via bias, not by adequate conceptualisation.

    Now, as is well known to all, people with extroverted intuition in a dominant role are fully capable of performing other people's functions. Why, both ENTPs and ENFPs routinely report spending some part of their youth as INTJs and INFJs respectively. So, extroverts, recall your immature selves, reignite your ability to conceptualise without suffering to be beholden to the world as it happens. Conceptualise what subjectivity really is.

    Good luck.
    If you prefer to hide within your subjectivity, then remain comfortable with forever being misunderstood.

  2. #292
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    Would this be an example of Ni vs Ne? It drives me bonkers when people stray like mad from the OP, and the OP never gets a proper answer. I don't post things to provide an outlet for people's ramblings; I post things to get answers or to ideally give them. (Unless it's an obviously messed up OP in the first place; then it's perfectly acceptable to go off on tangents.)

  3. #293
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    If you prefer to hide within your subjectivity, then remain comfortable with forever being misunderstood.
    Really, forever?

    Oh no.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Really, forever?

    Oh no.
    Glad you're comfortable with it. It must be lonely from time to time, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Really, forever?

    Oh no.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Glad you're comfortable with it. It must be lonely from time to time, though.


    Ahem.

    Ni focuses on how to create a specific, possible future outcome over time, while Ne focuses on where immediate opportunities will lead in the near future.

    That's the core of the conflict... why are we getting caught up in dismissing one another's ideas in a manner that does not lead to constructive conversation?

  6. #296
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    The answer's been given a few times already but doesn't seem to stick.

    Wild guess, and this is really disappointing if true: people don't see past personal identity. It's like, the simplest truth of Jungian theory, that foundational structures in your personal identity determine elements of reality that to you are necessary even as to others they are contingent. Like, the necessity of extroverting a particular kind of attention. Or like the necessity of distinguishing a particular inner world from the outer world.


    Also the Ne users started it. They won't explain why objectivity is necessary.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The answer's been given a few times already but doesn't seem to stick.

    Wild guess, and this is really disappointing if true: people don't see past personal identity. It's like, the simplest truth of Jungian theory, that foundational structures in your personal identity determine elements of reality that to you are necessary even as to others they are contingent. Like, the necessity of extroverting a particular kind of attention. Or like the necessity of distinguishing a particular inner world from the outer world.
    That could be true... but I like to think that can be overcome to some extent if the person is open-minded and willing to question themselves.

    Also the Ne users started it. They won't explain why objectivity is necessary.
    Speaking of which, I have something to say about that idea of "objectivity."

    I would disagree that Ne is an objective function. The most "objective" functions, if you will, are Se and Te. Both of them only work with and analyze data that's obviously right in front of them. You can't get much more objective than that.

    But Intuition is inherently subjective. Even in Extraverted form, it still basically projects patterns generated by the mind onto the world around it. Those patterns do not reflect reality, but only assumptions about reality that may or may not be correct. Ni is not completely subjective in a way that Ne is not, it still gets the data it starts with from the outer world. The difference is that, after getting the data... Ni turns its attention inward, and looks at the pattern that has been called up. Examines the assumptions that have been made, and perhaps tries to look at all the different assumptions that could be made, seeing how those would change the pattern. Then, it can also extend the pattern into the future, branching out at various points when there are multiple possibilities.

    Ne, on the other hand, just looks at the patterns that are generated, as they are generated, and either acts on them or discards them. The patterns are basically treated like reality, and trusted. Any analysis of how the pattern arose, or what assumptions they are based on, will be conducted by Ti or Fi, because that process requires an Introverted function.

    Also, claiming that NPs are more objective because their Intuition is more focused on the object may be technically correct, but it doesn't mean the same thing as "objective" in the sense of being unbiased or clear. In that same sense, you would also have to say that SPs were more objective than SJs. Sure, they're more attuned to the object, they might be reacting to data that's available right now... but SJs are usually better prepared for the future, and tend to make better decisions in the long run! Also, SJs do focus on the present, they just respond to it in terms of how it relates to the past that they've experienced, and don't trust/respond to the new data immediately. It's not as though SJs don't take in new information.

    And the same thing applies to Ni/Ne... Ni users don't trust or respond to new patterns immediately, just like Si users don't trust or respond to new sensory data immediately. This would make them "subjective" because they are primarily turned towards the subject, even though this doesn't mean that they're closed to outside data. They just focus on the internal impact and meaning of the information, rather than the external manifestation of it.

    Se users and Ne users DO trust and respond to new data and patterns immediately, however. This would make them "objective" because they are primarily turned towards the object, even though this doesn't mean they are objective in the sense of having no biases or assumptions. They focus on what is manifesting in front of them, and how to respond to it, rather than on what it means or how it impacts them.

    I have not been able to follow OMTs argument well, because he keeps making assumptions that contradict one another. My Ni cannot handle this well (nor can my Ti), even if the contradictions seem expedient in dealing with the external data. If he is saying that my inability to accept conflicting assumptions within the same context is a flaw that prevents me from responding to reality in the most advantageous way possible at a particular moment, particularly from a social perspective, or in terms of expressing my ideas to others... he might be right. But that doesn't mean he has the clearest picture of what's going on. I don't see where he's getting that from.

  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But Intuition is inherently subjective. Even in Extraverted form, it still basically projects patterns generated by the mind onto the world around it. Those patterns do not reflect reality, but only assumptions about reality that may or may not be correct.
    Yars, this is the interesting point, the one I'm hoping to have light shed on. Where do the patterns come from? I believe objectivity plays a part in that over time what patterns get generated do... um, "reflect the world"?

    It seems to me that common to both intuitions is a measure of abstraction. (This might well be incredibly "Duh!" but let's move on.) Ne abstractions cling to the world in some way? The best understanding I can come up with is, it's like Se but abstract. But what is this abstraction? What do they see? Connections to other abstraction seen before? And yes, if it is personalised--as in, two Ne users won't necessarily observe the same potential in the same environment--then where does it come from?

    It's interesting that two Ni people won't necessarily--probably even emphatically won't--build up the same cognitive content, but probably will be able to communicate it to one another. And probably this is true for two Ne people too. In the same environment they may not get the same read, but they'll be able to communicate their read to one another. Won't they?

    Will different Ne people ever radically disagree on a read of a given environment? Is that even a suitable question?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Will different Ne people ever radically disagree on a read of a given environment? Is that even a suitable question?
    Why do you think we like to argue so damn much?

    I have not been able to follow OMTs argument well, because he keeps making assumptions that contradict one another. My Ni cannot handle this well (nor can my Ti), even if the contradictions seem expedient in dealing with the external data. If he is saying that my inability to accept conflicting assumptions within the same context is a flaw that prevents me from responding to reality in the most advantageous way possible at a particular moment, particularly from a social perspective, or in terms of expressing my ideas to others... he might be right. But that doesn't mean he has the clearest picture of what's going on. I don't see where he's getting that from.
    Athenian, You can always ask me about specific points if you think I'm contradicting myself. I very well might be, and simply overlooked it. That would be very helpful.

  10. #300
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    lol u guys still gong on with this. just agree that you wont agree on this, i have seen this way too many times and i know this will never stop unless you stop it.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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