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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #171
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yep, in poetry, the trick is that the meaning gets overlapped, just as in the Schrodinger's Cat analogy. Poetry is "more" meaningful when it says something in a particular way such that it really does mean A and B and C, whether by pun or homonym or synonym or other word play. All the meanings are "true," or close enough to "truth," like words that almost but don't quite rhyme.
    Yeah, I don't understand what is "poetry" and how this is any "poetic."

    Context shifting is most especially frustrating in the social sciences where people are always arguing about semantics. "Come on, can't we just have an objective definition(e.g. X is democracy) so we can move on please?" Besides, how can you argue about meaning when meaning itself isn't established? It. does. not. make. sense.

    I wonder if you're seeing other meanings and related ideas that contradict the "clearly intended" multiple meanings of the word-plays?
    Contradictions. I mostly see contradictions. In everything. But they make it sound like contradictions are acceptable.

    "Plato's Republic". Either it's written by an Ni-dom or my teacher is crazy.

  2. #172
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yes... i almost want to say we build... like... sets? we collect micro-systems? and then we connect them? if you pictured a set of systems - say the enneagram, MBTI, OCEAN, and socionics, all as planes stacked like a set of plates, with "points" at certain types, then what Ne (at least, inasmuch as i understand it) does is run a string through certain points, aligning the chosen systems with one another. i pull in 7, Se, Openess, and Si (possibly a bad example) in to all align with one another and create a new "paradigm", or total alignment of sets. a vertical or diagonal plane running through the plates, if you will. it's changing content, instead of context.
    What lets you draw the string? Glossing over the possibility that it's a bad example, the string can be drawn because "7, Se, Openess, and Si" are all "the same" kind of thing in some way? Or because the system they make is the "the same" kind of system as the other systems--enneagram, MBTI, OCEAN, socionics--in the stack? You're making a new system or identifying how all the systems interrelate? And the interest in doing any of this is... well, novelty obviously, but novelty of conception of what?

    interesting, what you said about your Ni process being sui generis.
    Which of course it isn't. I don't get anywhere without seed information from outside to start the process. But I conceive of the process as removed from the outside world so I am free to make whatever I want. Naturally I will end up making something that has some relationship to the outside world, but that stuff is applications of what I've made inside. There's a sense that the engine inside is far bigger than the products tossed out the factory front door.

    i know what you mean about not choosing to word it that way. that kept happening in the Fi/Fe threads... we would have similar concepts, but different wordings felt right to us.
    A minor miscommunication there. I emphasized the differing wording as a flag that it seems to me there are different processes at work.

    anyway Ne draws parallels...
    Is that the primary activity of the function?


    Whatever Ne does, it does it on abstractions. However concrete it may seem, the external world is viewed in terms of abstractions. And while it is the person who makes these abstractions, these abstractions are deemed to inhere in the parts of the world where they were found. Thus two things happen at the same time: these abstractions are patterned after the parts of the world where they were found and they are patterned after the particular interests and awarenesses the observer brings with her. But formal separation from the person is uppermost so if the observer wants to know more, she has to introduce her observations to the world and see what comes of that event. The observations are then refined according to the results in the part of the world where they were introduced. This increases the objectivity of the results: the results don't come just from the observer, but from the environment itself. But what are these results? What were the observations? What's the purpose of refining the observations?

    Pfft.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #173
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    :workout:


    Whatever Ne does, it does it on abstractions. However concrete it may seem, the external world is viewed in terms of abstractions. When these abstractions are being made, two things are happening at the same time: these abstractions are patterned after the parts of the world where they were found and they are patterned after the particular interests and awarenesses the observer brings with her. But formal separation from the person is uppermost and the abstractions are deemed to inhere in the part of the world where they were found. So if the observer wants to know more, she has to introduce her observations to the world and see what comes of that event. The observations are then refined according to the results in the perhaps new but seemingly similar part of the world where they were introduced. This increases the objectivity of the results: the results don't come just from the observer, but from the environment itself. But what are these results? What were the observations? What's the purpose of refining the observations? What, even, were the abstractions?

    Theory tells us the abstractions were potentials. "What this could become?" The refinement is aimed at finding what it will become. If it will become something even more stupendous than it already is, interest is piqued and maintained. If eventually it is discovered that the thing, though undoubtedly awesome, is a familiar kind of awesome, interest wanes.


    ^ Behold, mortals! I, Ni! Some small amount of input data was used to create that post-pfft account, and little of that input data came from this thread itself. Yet I have created a conception. And now I toss that conception out among the earthlings and allow them to express awe and fawn. The conception is without particular objective root. It isn't linked to any one account, nor any personal example. It just is, arriving seemingly sui generis, or at least presented that way.

    And I tell you this not so that you may express undying gratitude for the illumination you receive. No, I tell you this so that YOU may illuminate everyone else. A simple unanswerable question should suffice.


    "IS THAT YOU..."


    John Wayne?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #174
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    Wow, I don't know how many times I can state in one day that the function is the same it's merely the attitude that is different (adds another chalk mark to wall on his prison cell).

  5. #175
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Does that mean you agree with my 'plz identify the rabbit hole you wanna explore so we can start burrowing together' request?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #176
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Wow, I don't know how many times I can state in one day that the function is the same it's merely the attitude that is different (adds another chalk mark to wall on his prison cell).
    That's quite a merely there though. It makes introverts of some and extroverts of others. How can it not alter what they think about and how they think about it?


    This is the dark side, Jim. Identification with The Other. Next one of us'll be accepting metaphors in place of actual reinventions of the world.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Does that mean you agree with my 'plz identify the rabbit hole you wanna explore so we can start burrowing together' request?
    I try, it's just that you sometimes don't see me putting out my T breadcrumbs because you are looking for N breadcrumbs. It's the same when you guys go all introverted F on us. Although we do try to be understanding enough of the bat signals to hug at the appropriate time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That's quite a merely there though. It makes introverts of some and extroverts of others. How can it not alter what they think about and how they think about it?

    This is the dark side, Jim. Identification with The Other. Next one of us'll be accepting metaphors in place of actual reinventions of the world.
    Attitude is important regarding how we sense check. For an ENxP, they sense check their intuitions against reality frequently as it is extroverted. For us we don't really leave as many of our intuitions free to be observed by others; instead we through our T out and go: look at the T, work out where N is because it's hiding!!

    Heresy? Perhaps, but only for your own good(s).

    :pornstar:

  8. #178
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Wow, I don't know how many times I can state in one day that the function is the same it's merely the attitude that is different (adds another chalk mark to wall on his prison cell).
    Well, definitely. I have a lot more in common with all N-dominant types than I do with all F-dominant types.

    The catch is that having a different attitude changes how the function naturally tends to work. Like typology itself, it represents tendencies. Thus, both Ni and Ne users CAN operate in the way that the other normally does, but it takes more effort and doesn't feel as natural. They each have a preference to use Intuition in their preferred world, and that tendency shapes how they use that Intuition.

    If you ignore Introversion/Extraversion of functions, IJs and EPs are all the same, as are IPs and EJs. So, it's possible that it tells less about the function, and more about the person's attitude towards the world. Their energy levels, Introversion/Extraversion, and assertiveness.

  9. #179
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Attitude is important regarding how we sense check. For an ENxP, they sense check their intuitions against reality frequently as it is extroverted. For us we don't really leave as many of our intuitions free to be observed by others; instead we through our T out and go: look at the T, work out where N is because it's hiding!!

    Heresy? Perhaps, but only for your own good(s).
    While it is true that every person will always seek an impossible balance, that seeking exists because there is and must be unbalance. WE MUST NOT DIMINISH THE IMPORTANCE OF INTROVERSION, Jim! That we naturally seek out extroversion as a completion of our purposes, so too do the extroverts (eventually) seek out introversion. If for no other reason than "they want us too", introversion and extroversion are of fundamentally equal metaphysical standing.

    Ergo, there is purpose to attitude. And the reasons for which it is meaningful to the individual are different to the reasons for which it is meaningful to the group. Thus...

    "[PLACEHOLDER]"


    --presently drawing a blank.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #180
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There's a time and a place for type-eugenics, I guess, but there's a problem with type-miscegenation: translation. I am for example frustrated with Ne type people's apparent inability to describe their functions in terms that I value. How is that gap bridged? By understanding what the terms are that I do value. But this is a half-bridge at best. I'll also require the other team to try doing it my way for a bit.

    Now, I assume all people think a bit this way. Certainly they may think that way if given Jungian terms to play with. But it's a failing plan and always will be. It actually masks a complete unwillingness to ever accept the terms of the other side. Whatever comes my way will always be translated into and assessed in terms of my terms.

    Are there people who don't function this way? Would they even be people if they didn't?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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