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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #161
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Ok. But what is the point of brainstorming if you don't shift contexts ?
    Hello antisocial!!! I have missed you and your delightful rocks!!! (PS Does gold actually exhibit facets like iron pyrite?)

    So Ne doms dont shift facets, but more link patterns when we brainstorm I suspect. We can identify many different paths forward and link many new ideas to old ideas. So we are looking to link what we know to other things we know, thus finding whole new areas of knowledge upon the connection being completed....not see things in different contexts.

    So for instance, i am buidling a knowledge management process to transfer knowledge from our Marketing group to our Sales group. At first I was willing to entertain almost any idea and was very careful to probe the suggestions others put forth in depth. However after talking to the tenth person, I had built a consensus model about 6-8 people deep at each stage of the process. Thus I have a pretty good idea of what each stage needs to look like, so each subsequent opinion is listened to, but I spend less time listening and digging-as i already know what the answer needs to be. I started off with Ne linking all of the opinions and ideas of each person together to build an Si consensus solution. Now I am just bouncing the Si consensus model off of additional people to fine tune it and verify it doesnt have any major flaws. I'll chat with another ten folks or so and with each person the model will get little tweaks, little modifications, but mostly just verification.

    Now funny thing-if you bring me information that seems valuable I would totally rebuild the model...I want the solution to be the best possible...but it isnt about brainstorming, but instead results at this point? Yeah it seems boring to me too to be honest. Ne is for fun, so this part of projects is actually pretty boring. However the motivations is that the results will make all the folks lives a lot easier, so with an Fi motivator, I will get the job done.

  2. #162
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    just a Ni user being able to forsee where i can't, and treating me like i'm an idiot because i don't have the same facility with understanding likelihood. i feel like, if only because introverted functions are so hard to explain, Ni users share their understandings less. and i guess because i'm a general skeptic i don't tend to trust what they say unless there's a good T reason for it. happens more with NFJs because NTJs tend to just be like "because Te 1, 2, 3."

    incidentally -- any recommendations on how to support an NFJ when they're really worried about something? i feel like my usual Fi strategies are less effective here
    Hmm, that must be frustrating. I think you are right that it's a little harder to see where Ni users are coming from if they don't outline it. Fe may make them feel like they need interest and invitation to do so, rather than doing it spontaneously and Ti may make it difficult to delineate their thoughts right away. I think because I'm a Ni dom, I'm not even aware of using Ni. I used to assume that everyone prefers to look down the road and rule out options that don't look like they will turn out well based on observation, past experience and deduction. It seems so real to me that I almost sometimes feel like I would be insulting someone by pointing it out, or else I feel that they would not be receptive to hearing it (I think Ni tends to focus on obstacles and negative rather than possibilities and positives because it rules things out first). Many people see this preventative tendancy to look at possible areas of concern rather than areas of possibility first as being negative, cynical, over-cautious or crackpot-y. It's kind of putting yourself out there to tell someone about what you see, particularly if the person may not like to hear it, so I check and double check that the person is open to hearing it before preceding. Usually my ENFJ mother tends to be over vocal about those kinds of things and then feels badly after, while I tend to be under vocal about it and wish I had said more.

    Ni likes to apply a particular concept to as many different contexts as possible and see if it still holds true. To me it appears that Ne does just the opposite. It tries to build a context and then gathers possible information. Therefore it's very frustrating when the context keeps shifting.

    Supporting an NFJ when they're really worried about something? Listen to them till they are done venting, even if it is ridiculous. Know that you are helping them wade through all the emotional debris around them so that they can sort out what is useful and what is not. Them talking will help them start sorting, so the more questions you can ask to gain context will make them feel like they are on more solid footing and can see what they are working with. It also helps them to feel that you really want to understand the situation and makes them more receptive to input later on. Help them identify what it really is that's bothering them by asking questions rather than only offering sympathy or trying to help them work through emotions. Emotions are not particularly important to them, other than being signposts that something is not well right now and needs attending to. Try to avoid being the devil's advocate at all during the venting/worried stage. Just ask questions about what they are talking about. They will likely shift energy after a bit after they feel they have identified what's really bothering them and then are more likely to get whatever help from you they may need in solving it, or they may feel you have already done them a great service just by listening.

    I would recommend reading Z Buck's blog on this stuff.

  3. #163
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The only problem I could see is that INxJs might see ENxPs as crazy, and ENxPs might see INxJs as overly cautious, paranoid, or uptight.

    But overall I get along with other Ns, not matter if they have Ne or Ni...I don't see this as a conflict. I tend to have more little stupid conflicts with NTPs than NTJs, even though I'm probably an ENFP.

    Ne and Ni don't make much of a difference to me, and that might be because I usually score both in my top three functions.
    I'm the same. NTPs confuse the hell out of me. I think it's more an Fe/Fi conflict than gets me into trouble (although MUCH more with FJs, ugh I don't like them). Fi is all about integrity, personal values and individuality. Fe is all about selflessness, community, getting along and other people in general. so I think they're shallow and fake and they think I'm a selfish bastard.

  4. #164
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    Antisocial: We don't shift contexts, we shift direction. (We attack from a more unrelated angle). Or that's what you meant? Context seems more like we're changing our view on the object, which we don't we just try to find a different direction to attack the object in question. The object is always what it is, when we're connecting. We just have an idea of where we want it to be when we're done analyzing.

  5. #165
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    This forum has made me so acutely aware that I (perhaps overly) use metaphors to try to explain my thinking.

    If we were crafting a pearl necklace, Ni would orient more to each pearl, and Ne would orient more to the string connecting them.

    Ni sees each pearl as individual and thus unique, while Ne is more interested in how to connect them to make the necklace.

    Ne would focus on the size and color and quality of each pearl to make them fit together in a pleasing pattern on the string based on similar qualitative attributes.

    Ni would focus on each pearl and decide that half of them would look better as a bracelet, and the remaining in a lovely ring with matching earrings.

    Ne would say, "We were making a necklace!" and Ni would say, "I looked at each pearl and saw a different way of using them."

    If the point was to make a necklace, Ni fails. If the point was to make the best use of the pearls, Ne fails. So each has a purpose.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #166
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This forum has made me so acutely aware that I (perhaps overly) use metaphors to try to explain my thinking.

    If we were crafting a pearl necklace, Ni would orient more to each pearl, and Ne would orient more to the string connecting them.

    Ni sees each pearl as individual and thus unique, while Ne is more interested in how to connect them to make the necklace.

    Ne would focus on the size and color and quality of each pearl to make them fit together in a pleasing pattern on the string based on similar qualitative attributes.

    Ni would focus on each pearl and decide that half of them would look better as a bracelet, and the remaining in a lovely ring with matching earrings.

    Ne would say, "We were making a necklace!" and Ni would say, "I looked at each pearl and saw a different way of using them."

    If the point was to make a necklace, Ni fails. If the point was to make the best use of the pearls, Ne fails. So each has a purpose.
    I heartily endorse this metaphor!
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #167
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    the outer world is our ocean. i like uumlau's usage of "waves" because i very much see what i perceive as Ne usage as looking through an ocean full of concepts: different particles and colors and shapes and objects and tones and nuances and sounds and ways and all of that. the objective part is that those things are tangible - all are possible. all have the potential to exist, thus all exist in the Ne-scape - that's the objective part, as i understand it. everything exists. all connections between things, therefore, also exist. all paths can theoretically be followed. the subjective part is which patterns and paths present themselves most readily - and also the fact that these things only really exist in our minds.
    The objective part would be that there appears to be an ocean at all. Concepts already formed. Which is what you said, but I wanted to place more emphasis on the "looking through" aspect because it doesn't seem to me as if I do that kind of thing when conceptualising. Whether I do or don't do what I do by looking through alternatives, looking through alternatives is not how I'd prefer to describe my process. For better or worse I view what I do as sui generis construction. Information is sometimes required from outside, and actually it is that point particularly that tells me I am mostly dealing with inner stuff that I mold as I choose to build up a conception, which conception I will from time to time launch applications of into the world and see if they will float.

    NB all: any time you use a physical metaphor for describing intuition, you're introducing unconcious bias that undermines your message. None of the physical metaphors so far presented and supposed to describe the extent and limitation of the various brands of intuition speak to me. Intuition is intuition. WHY DO ANY OF YOUR METAPHORS INFORM?


    EDIT: besides, "pearl necklace", really? People still do that outside of porn?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #168
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Okay, fine.

    Take a situation. Any situation. There's a setting, there's things, there's people and artifacts of people. Draw from it a conception. The form of the situation. What form? It's up to you. But lets imagine the crafting of a pearl necklace. Thus we see a large Japanese man grunting over a squealing schoolgirl with her top open. The form of the situation includes: "Japanese have strange gender roles that influence sex", "schoolgirls are hot", "tatami mats are really comfortable in summer".

    Later there is another situation. Somewhat more personal this time. But still there is a pearl necklace involved. "Here," says a somewhat unwanted boyfriend, and he's given you a box with a far too expensive gift inside, a string of oyster spit baubles, a pearl necklace. And now you're uncomfortable, and you tell him so, lashing out angrily at the wildly inappropriate message of domination he has presented you. "What!" you demand. "Do you think I'm some school girl you can boss around!?"

    Ne.

    Yes or no?

    Objectively the two situations are different. But objectively they contain conjoinable referents. Connecting content abstracted from both situations informs one of higher content. One does NOT think one is an abused schoolgirl, but one does see a wider image, perhaps a third image of roles and expectations and consequences and thus one can refuse the boyfriend in the second scenario.

    Yes or No?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #169
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hmm, that must be frustrating. I think you are right that it's a little harder to see where Ni users are coming from if they don't outline it. Fe may make them feel like they need interest and invitation to do so, rather than doing it spontaneously and Ti may make it difficult to delineate their thoughts right away. I think because I'm a Ni dom, I'm not even aware of using Ni. I used to assume that everyone prefers to look down the road and rule out options that don't look like they will turn out well based on observation, past experience and deduction. It seems so real to me that I almost sometimes feel like I would be insulting someone by pointing it out, or else I feel that they would not be receptive to hearing it (I think Ni tends to focus on obstacles and negative rather than possibilities and positives because it rules things out first). Many people see this preventative tendancy to look at possible areas of concern rather than areas of possibility first as being negative, cynical, over-cautious or crackpot-y. It's kind of putting yourself out there to tell someone about what you see, particularly if the person may not like to hear it, so I check and double check that the person is open to hearing it before preceding. Usually my ENFJ mother tends to be over vocal about those kinds of things and then feels badly after, while I tend to be under vocal about it and wish I had said more.
    ahhh. that makes a lot of sense, thank you. i like how you phrased what i italicized... that helps me understand Ni better. sometimes it seems like such a confusing thing, but that is clear. so what i'm interpreting as haughtiness may really even be a reluctance to insult by stating the obvious?

    of all the things i would not have thought of! pleasant to hear, though.

    Ni likes to apply a particular concept to as many different contexts as possible and see if it still holds true. To me it appears that Ne does just the opposite. It tries to build a context and then gathers possible information. Therefore it's very frustrating when the context keeps shifting.
    yes... i almost want to say we build... like... sets? we collect micro-systems? and then we connect them? if you pictured a set of systems - say the enneagram, MBTI, OCEAN, and socionics, all as planes stacked like a set of plates, with "points" at certain types, then what Ne (at least, inasmuch as i understand it) does is run a string through certain points, aligning the chosen systems with one another. i pull in 7, Se, Openess, and Si (possibly a bad example) in to all align with one another and create a new "paradigm", or total alignment of sets. a vertical or diagonal plane running through the plates, if you will. it's changing content, instead of context. and while i'm doing that the Ni user is sitting over here flipping the MBTI on its head and asking if its rules still apply. but i don't really have a problem with that... i've never really been opposed to Ni itself, just to my own lack of understanding. i know something brilliant is going on in there and it frustrates me to not know what it is! and the other person's reluctance to share is like insult to ineptitude...

    Supporting an NFJ when they're really worried about something? Listen to them till they are done venting, even if it is ridiculous. Know that you are helping them wade through all the emotional debris around them so that they can sort out what is useful and what is not. Them talking will help them start sorting, so the more questions you can ask to gain context will make them feel like they are on more solid footing and can see what they are working with. It also helps them to feel that you really want to understand the situation and makes them more receptive to input later on. Help them identify what it really is that's bothering them by asking questions rather than only offering sympathy or trying to help them work through emotions. Emotions are not particularly important to them, other than being signposts that something is not well right now and needs attending to. Try to avoid being the devil's advocate at all during the venting/worried stage. Just ask questions about what they are talking about. They will likely shift energy after a bit after they feel they have identified what's really bothering them and then are more likely to get whatever help from you they may need in solving it, or they may feel you have already done them a great service just by listening.

    I would recommend reading Z Buck's blog on this stuff.
    excellent. thank you. and yeah, sometimes it feels a little ridiculous/fatalistic, but i know it's just part and parcel to the positive side of Ni. it must be an uncomfortable place... sort of the counterpart of Ne users getting lost in too many possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The objective part would be that there appears to be an ocean at all. Concepts already formed. Which is what you said, but I wanted to place more emphasis on the "looking through" aspect because it doesn't seem to me as if I do that kind of thing when conceptualising. Whether I do or don't do what I do by looking through alternatives, looking through alternatives is not how I'd prefer to describe my process. For better or worse I view what I do as sui generis construction. Information is sometimes required from outside, and actually it is that point particularly that tells me I am mostly dealing with inner stuff that I mold as I choose to build up a conception, which conception I will from time to time launch applications of into the world and see if they will float.

    NB all: any time you use a physical metaphor for describing intuition, you're introducing unconcious bias that undermines your message. None of the physical metaphors so far presented and supposed to describe the extent and limitation of the various brands of intuition speak to me. Intuition is intuition. WHY DO ANY OF YOUR METAPHORS INFORM?


    EDIT: besides, "pearl necklace", really? People still do that outside of porn?


    interesting, what you said about your Ni process being sui generis. i know what you mean about not choosing to word it that way. that kept happening in the Fi/Fe threads... we would have similar concepts, but different wordings felt right to us.

    anyway Ne draws parallels... metaphors are a fast way to set up two complex structures and jump similarity to similarity, instead of having to start at the beginning and construct a whole picture... any words you choose to use will necessarily introduce bias too, though, because of their connotations. so might as well start with an easily-understandable metaphor, and then begin tailoring it more and more to the real thing...

    Ne.

    Yes or no?
    edit - i've analyzed this too much. i don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Are you sure you didnt shift context? (especially on an Fi topic....) Often you guys are spinning through contexts very quickly. It's fun....but it doesnt generate results for me if I try and think in that way. Once I have understood a subject well enough to define a single context, to release it is to destroy everything built. This seems weird to you guys I suppose, but the context is built out of repeated observations-layers and layers and layers of them. Unless you can identify a flaw in the way the observations were conducted or give me a brand new compelling way to view the situation, then I can roam into your context, but I have to maintain my foundation. The real fun is to link across topics....I suppose that is layers of contexts all linked together via Ne paths. That's super Ne and is where the most beautiful thoughts are found.

    But I find if i try and do this with anybody but another Ne dom, the connections cannot be seen. The pattern is so blatant, so obvious. You guys may "observe" my commentary on the surface pattern once I explain it, but then after that you discard it as trivial...like you can't see the depth behind it, how very encompassing it is....I suspect an Ne dom does the same thing to an Ni dom's ideas....we dont see the depth, only the surface conclusion.

    *prys brain away from forum and back into reality where I can actually contribute things of value*
    Basically we agree on a Te-Fi frame of context which is a middle ground. Once I have Te agreement you won't find me shift that ever in a set situation. Given time the Ne user will spontaneously flick back to their original 'Intuition is defined by its extroverted sense checks!' they reset the Fi-Te switches to their own rather than what was agreed and I fall of the radar; then they complain that my context is irrelevant even though earlier we had agreed that a more convergent position was the best available.

    This is distasteful because I will then feel that I have to negotiate from a middle ground that was already established as quite clearly the middle ground did not give the Ne user what they required after all. After this happens a few times I view the Ne user as a waste of time because they continue to break these seemingly improved positions in favour of their own individualist mindset at my cost and they will refuse to consider my context.

    I will view them as people who's words and actions are inconsistent and trust them less each time this occurs.

    I have no clearer way of stating that.

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