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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #151
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I wonder... I seem to be associating "objective" with "orderly". Perhaps because of associating objectivity with extroverted thinking. But still... could Ne be characterised as orderly?

    For the purpose of that question I'm assuming that "orderly" and the more usual characterisation of Ne as "random" and "unruly" can be different. The perceptions themselves can be surprising and entertainingly unexpected, but the origin of the perceptions need not be. Or does this give objectivity undue weight?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #152
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I wonder... I seem to be associating "objective" with "orderly". Perhaps because of associating objectivity with extroverted thinking. But still... could Ne be characterised as orderly?

    For the purpose of that question I'm assuming that "orderly" and the more usual characterisation of Ne as "random" and "unruly" can be different. The perceptions themselves can be surprising and entertainingly unexpected, but the origin of the perceptions need not be. Or does this give objectivity undue weight?
    Ne is objective insofar as it is not subjective. It is outside the self (sort of). The patterns it sees have a subjective, internal source, insofar as one has a predisposition to see certain kinds of patterns, but their existence is "out there" in the "real world." An easy analogy is waves in water and waves in air and waves in solids and light waves. Even though the underlying reality and physics of each kind of wave is often very different, the resulting patterns of sinusoidal oscillations all have the same kinds of behavior and can be used to provide further insight. E.g., just as talking creates a sound wave in air, that can be converted into a wave in water or a wave in a solid or an oscillating current in a wire or an oscillating amplitude or frequency of electromagnetism.

    In this metaphorical view, Ni would be "blind" to the similarities between wave patterns, insisting that they are all really quite different with different rules for evolving over time, or simply cease to exist as some necessary ingredient for wave propagation disappears (air too thin, no tension in a string, no gravity holding water "down"). To Ni, these are all different things, and Ne bringing up "but electromagnetic waves are waves, too" just has Ni responding, "uh huh, yeah, but that doesn't mean anything." Then Ne invents a radio, and Ni says, "D'oh!"

    This is just all analogy and metaphor: Ni doesn't make someone blind to the similarities between the patterns, or ignorant as to the possibilities of radio or telephone, but rather there is a tendency to regard certain kinds of patterns as lacking "real meaning." Ni is wary of things that seem "superficially similar" but really aren't the same at all, instead looking at things that seem superficially different and seeing all sorts of underlying "meaningful" similarities.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes. In the cross Ni/Ne communication, Ni describes a place, Ne assumes that it is "here", then Ni suddenly doesn't seem to be there to Ne, Ni is in a different "here": same place, same time, slightly different world.

    The starting points are the same, but the unspoken assumptions aren't quite communicated correctly, so we end up in slightly different worlds: they look mostly the same, but because of the different assumptions, we don't see each other.

    FWIW, I was using "possible worlds" as an analogy, not as some sort of implication that Ne cannot conceive of other (possible or even impossible) worlds. It's that the Ni "other worlds" are all "near" a particular point upon which we are focusing. Kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, where the cat is alive, and dead, and something inbetween, not insisting that the cat definitely is in one state or the other.
    What yo uwrote sounds like an assumption on both parts, not only Ne. I blame this on Dom Ni lack of Se and actually checking along the way that Ne is still with them.

    As an ISTP and tertiary Ni with a very strong Se I can pop in and out of these mazes keeping an eye out with Se, never really diving deep into Ni and staying down for long. When Ni leads it "assumes" that Ne is following, but Dom Ni lacks the external perception to actually validate that they are following the same path....in reality, INTJs actually fight this seperation and get frustrated and think they are right based on an Fi judgement of the situation, but is blind to this judgement because they dont see it as a Fi judgement or opinion, but whats correct because they believe it is the right thing. They get frustrated when someone isnt following them in this maze, I mean after all they know this maze better then anyone...but fail to realize that this maze is an internal maze they created and all they are doing is following there own inner world.

    edit: The best way to lead is from behind as you cant keep an eye on whats behind you without losing whats in front of you.

    And one of the things that frustrate my wife is when Ne walks off into another world without saying anything. Imagine an ENFP at walmart, good luck keeping track. My INTJ dad finds a chair and sits. "They lost me, they can find me". You can also equate this to Si inner world and getting distracted. The Ne part is that Si bounces from place to place instead of actually sitting in a single place for very long.


    I may have Te/Fi use confused above. Fi expresses outward where as Te expresses inward possibly and I dont see Te, but see Fi. I dont know.

  4. #154
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ne is objective insofar as it is not subjective. It is outside the self (sort of). The patterns it sees have a subjective, internal source, insofar as one has a predisposition to see certain kinds of patterns, but their existence is "out there" in the "real world." An easy analogy is waves in water and waves in air and waves in solids and light waves. Even though the underlying reality and physics of each kind of wave is often very different, the resulting patterns of sinusoidal oscillations all have the same kinds of behavior and can be used to provide further insight. E.g., just as talking creates a sound wave in air, that can be converted into a wave in water or a wave in a solid or an oscillating current in a wire or an oscillating amplitude or frequency of electromagnetism.

    In this metaphorical view, Ni would be "blind" to the similarities between wave patterns, insisting that they are all really quite different with different rules for evolving over time, or simply cease to exist as some necessary ingredient for wave propagation disappears (air too thin, no tension in a string, no gravity holding water "down"). To Ni, these are all different things, and Ne bringing up "but electromagnetic waves are waves, too" just has Ni responding, "uh huh, yeah, but that doesn't mean anything." Then Ne invents a radio, and Ni says, "D'oh!"

    This is just all analogy and metaphor: Ni doesn't make someone blind to the similarities between the patterns, or ignorant as to the possibilities of radio or telephone, but rather there is a tendency to regard certain kinds of patterns as lacking "real meaning." Ni is wary of things that seem "superficially similar" but really aren't the same at all, instead looking at things that seem superficially different and seeing all sorts of underlying "meaningful" similarities.
    I feel the presence of the dark side.

    Or, it doesn't matter where Ne operates from for so long as it is e it will use the outer world as a... No, not "measure", it's still not a judgment function, so it doesn't measure. But it relies on outside... um...-- "stimulus" is such a nondescript word here. There is something outside the person that stays with the intuition, indeed which the person requires that the intuition stay with. Is there not? And this is objectivity. It's the bridge along which the connections are made. Or... does anyone else hear a ringing soun--

    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I feel the presence of the dark side.

    Or, it doesn't matter where Ne operates from for so long as it is e it will use the outer world as a... No, not "measure", it's still not a judgment function, so it doesn't measure. But it relies on outside... um...-- "stimulus" is such a nondescript word here. There is something outside the person that stays with the intuition, indeed which the person requires that the intuition stay with. Is there not? And this is objectivity. It's the bridge along which the connections are made. Or... does anyone else hear a ringing soun--

    I hear crickets in my head.

  6. #156
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    Ne anima confusion detected.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ne anima confusion detected.
    So, how do you determine if Ne is actually confused or just playing confused? Gotta love Ne

  8. #158
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I feel the presence of the dark side.

    Or, it doesn't matter where Ne operates from for so long as it is e it will use the outer world as a... No, not "measure", it's still not a judgment function, so it doesn't measure. But it relies on outside... um...-- "stimulus" is such a nondescript word here. There is something outside the person that stays with the intuition, indeed which the person requires that the intuition stay with. Is there not? And this is objectivity. It's the bridge along which the connections are made. Or... does anyone else hear a ringing soun--



    the outer world is our ocean. i like uumlau's usage of "waves" because i very much see what i perceive as Ne usage as looking through an ocean full of concepts: different particles and colors and shapes and objects and tones and nuances and sounds and ways and all of that. the objective part is that those things are tangible - all are possible. all have the potential to exist, thus all exist in the Ne-scape - that's the objective part, as i understand it. everything exists. all connections between things, therefore, also exist. all paths can theoretically be followed. the subjective part is which patterns and paths present themselves most readily - and also the fact that these things only really exist in our minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_
    So, how do you determine if Ne is actually confused or just playing confused? Gotta love Ne
    perhaps there is no difference seriously though i don't think Ne is ever confused. only judgment functions get confused. Ne just sees. maybe it doesn't see everything, but it probably doesn't know that. only Fi or Ti would be able to look at other info coming in from Si, Ni, or Se and say "something is missing here".

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    What happened, skylights?
    just a Ni user being able to forsee where i can't, and treating me like i'm an idiot because i don't have the same facility with understanding likelihood. i feel like, if only because introverted functions are so hard to explain, Ni users share their understandings less. and i guess because i'm a general skeptic i don't tend to trust what they say unless there's a good T reason for it. happens more with NFJs because NTJs tend to just be like "because Te 1, 2, 3."

    incidentally -- any recommendations on how to support an NFJ when they're really worried about something? i feel like my usual Fi strategies are less effective here

  9. #159
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    By contrast I feel that NFPs can - on occasion - allow me to view their paradigms and axioms when they are comfortable and delightfully we can find good agreement on the ones to follow in future. Of course this doesn't mean they will listen to mine in return, there is nothing worse than finding the context has been shifted back to theirs after you have earlier both agreed upon a common frame of reference and without any consultation pronounces that your context is not their context and that is wrong. I tend to view this as extremely distasteful and it causes a crisis of confidence regarding my trust in that person; usually they do not survive it as someone who is worth listening to.
    Are you sure you didnt shift context? (especially on an Fi topic....) Often you guys are spinning through contexts very quickly. It's fun....but it doesnt generate results for me if I try and think in that way. Once I have understood a subject well enough to define a single context, to release it is to destroy everything built. This seems weird to you guys I suppose, but the context is built out of repeated observations-layers and layers and layers of them. Unless you can identify a flaw in the way the observations were conducted or give me a brand new compelling way to view the situation, then I can roam into your context, but I have to maintain my foundation. The real fun is to link across topics....I suppose that is layers of contexts all linked together via Ne paths. That's super Ne and is where the most beautiful thoughts are found.

    But I find if i try and do this with anybody but another Ne dom, the connections cannot be seen. The pattern is so blatant, so obvious. You guys may "observe" my commentary on the surface pattern once I explain it, but then after that you discard it as trivial...like you can't see the depth behind it, how very encompassing it is....I suspect an Ne dom does the same thing to an Ni dom's ideas....we dont see the depth, only the surface conclusion.

    *prys brain away from forum and back into reality where I can actually contribute things of value*

  10. #160
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Are you sure you didnt shift context? (especially on an Fi topic....) Often you guys are spinning through contexts very quickly. It's fun....but it doesnt generate results for me if I try and think in that way. Once I have understood a subject well enough to define a single context, to release it is to destroy everything built. This seems weird to you guys I suppose, but the context is built out of repeated observations-layers and layers and layers of them. Unless you can identify a flaw in the way the observations were conducted or give me a brand new compelling way to view the situation, then I can roam into your context, but I have to maintain my foundation. The real fun is to link across topics....I suppose that is layers of contexts all linked together via Ne paths. That's super Ne and is where the most beautiful thoughts are found.

    But I find if i try and do this with anybody but another Ne dom, the connections cannot be seen. The pattern is so blatant, so obvious. You guys may "observe" my commentary on the surface pattern once I explain it, but then after that you discard it as trivial...like you can't see the depth behind it, how very encompassing it is....I suspect an Ne dom does the same thing to an Ni dom's ideas....we dont see the depth, only the surface conclusion.

    *prys brain away from forum and back into reality where I can actually contribute things of value*

    Ok. But what is the point of brainstorming if you don't shift contexts ?

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