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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #141
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    Yes; you have to be very explicit with us regarding what you see and more importantly why.

    We are very good at spelling out the axioms and paradigms we are follow. If you ignore our Te ramblings you might find that you aren't following the same paradigms or axioms at all.

    I can find NFJs quite repulsive because our paradigms and axioms are usually opposed: I disdain the other as a matter of choice. By contrast I feel that NFPs can - on occasion - allow me to view their paradigms and axioms when they are comfortable and delightfully we can find good agreement on the ones to follow in future. Of course this doesn't mean they will listen to mine in return, there is nothing worse than finding the context has been shifted back to theirs after you have earlier both agreed upon a common frame of reference and without any consultation pronounces that your context is not their context and that is wrong. I tend to view this as extremely distasteful and it causes a crisis of confidence regarding my trust in that person; usually they do not survive it as someone who is worth listening to.

  2. #142
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Huh...I'd imagine that that happens because during the 'compromise'-talks, you don't interject enough what you would like. I tend to put on the table how I want things and yes..if INTJs get what I mean, they often go with me *all* the way. I find myself asking 4 times:' are you sure you're ok with this?' And they tend to be 'neutral'. Or, want to see me happy and go along with my way of being. It is in *that* moment that I'm waiting for you to tell your side so we can intertwine the two. However, if you don't, then of course I'm going to go with what's most comfortable for me. Dunno if this is true for other nfps as well though.. you'll have to ask them

    As for the Te-parameters. I admit I sometimes have trouble following them, but most of the time they just happen within your head and you won't share. Or I have to get them by prodding you with a stick. Unfortunately I also have the habit of asking the wrong questions (Fi-questions, instead of Te ) making you guys all go: 'I *don't* know!'

    I guess that's probably also what happens during the compromising in fact. I ask you what you want, instead of how you see things. Perhaps thats where the miscommuncation happens?
    And frustration ensues
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    As for the Te-parameters. I admit I sometimes have trouble following them, but most of the time they just happen within your head and you won't share. Or I have to get them by prodding you with a stick. Unfortunately I also have the habit of asking the wrong questions (Fi-questions, instead of Te ) making you guys all go: 'I *don't* know!'

    I guess that's probably also what happens during the compromising in fact. I ask you what you want, instead of how you see things. Perhaps thats where the miscommuncation happens?
    And frustration ensues
    You are correct; as you know well enough, if I want someone I will ask for it explicitly and indeed give a thorough reason. Generally if I disdain something I will state explicitly so and with a thorough reason.

    I'm very happy to share Te, it isn't a quiet thing for us. If you ask us for our range of opinions we have many once they are properly and fully formed. But to expect an Fi answer is pretty unlikely unless I'm in my rather dedicated to engaging with the problems through belief ISFP Fi-Se mode.

    Also, you are still confusing Fi for instantaneous emotion and indeed emotion with an extroverted attitude. Therefore I have chosen your context to assist you in understanding my viewpoint.

  4. #144
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    I'm not confusing anything, but fine, i'll attempt to be more precise in my usage of it. It's an old habit though, so it might die hard.

    For me, I can usually estimate why you see things the way you do. When agreeing on things though, the main question is...'do you want this?' And somehow it isn't for you guys. I haven't figured out yet what question *is* the crux for you.

    Either way, we should stop derailing and go back to Ne/Ni
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  5. #145
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Ni, Ne, communication...holy...emotion blast..

    I have been riveting myself around this problem. The problem sourced out of me being fucking confused and not understanding whatever my teachers were "poetically"(yeah right) explaining---most of them being Ni-doms(i'm assuming).

    Oh god. Shift in meaning there, shift in meaning here, there and here, there and here...(Wait, which definition are we using? Huh...? What you say? All of them? What?? ARGGHHH!!!). ---> Internal Consistency(TiSi) isn't exactly compatible with perspective shifting.

    Oh look, we see something here! (No you fucking don't!!! It's just your unnecessary imagination! What?..NO! The author wasn't thinking of that when he was writing this! Look! He says exactly what he means!!) ----> Apparently, "Deeper" means "Insanity."

    ...(I have a question...wait..what??...that doesn't fucking relate to my question!!!) ----> I often asks questions that I find easily shows relationships among ideas. They just don't see it. I have to make a speech every-time I ask a question.

    Anyways, my problem is mostly the TiNeSi - NiTeSe clash. INFJ's are easier to communicate with due to Ti, but Ni-heavy INTJ's are just argh...

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I actually never claimed that Ne doesn't make 'mazes'. But it feels more like running ahead of you and you getting lost, vs Ni sticking close by but using trap doors that they conveniently forget to share the info on. I have just as much trouble following ENTPs, maybe even more, even though we share Ne. But they make my head spin, and vice versa. In fact, even with fellow ENFPs, when you both go Ne-ing, unless you were in sync to begin with, it's a lost cause, coz they go exploring the world on the right and you go exploring the world on the left and hop around the next world without informing the other. Communication is key.

    With Ni-users it's even more frustrating to me coz I can *feel* they're close by but there's like a trap door or a glass wall inbetween. I can see what they mean but I don't know how to sync up...and the longer I take, the more chances I have of getting trapped in this maze while they find their way and I'm stuck. There needs to be a sync-up in the beginning and it needs to be maintained..kinda like a rope connecting us. The thing is that the sync up is easier to get with fellow Ne-users, especially ENFPs as they share the same preferred perspective on the world, so it's easier to go, ok this is point 0, the starting point. With Ni-users I can feel like we have that ground then suddenly they go off and I'm like..I'm not sure we have the same starting point here!!!
    Yes. In the cross Ni/Ne communication, Ni describes a place, Ne assumes that it is "here", then Ni suddenly doesn't seem to be there to Ne, Ni is in a different "here": same place, same time, slightly different world.

    The starting points are the same, but the unspoken assumptions aren't quite communicated correctly, so we end up in slightly different worlds: they look mostly the same, but because of the different assumptions, we don't see each other.

    FWIW, I was using "possible worlds" as an analogy, not as some sort of implication that Ne cannot conceive of other (possible or even impossible) worlds. It's that the Ni "other worlds" are all "near" a particular point upon which we are focusing. Kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, where the cat is alive, and dead, and something inbetween, not insisting that the cat definitely is in one state or the other.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #147
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    mc escher! i love impossible geometry.
    makes my eyes go whirly whirl.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Ideas. Mostly bogus ones, which are fun but not necessarily used. That's where the judging functions come in: they take on the "good" ones and stop the impossible ones from being executed (not always if Ne is your dominant :-) which results in those unfinished projects).
    Ideas that are constrained by anything, pre-judgment?

    The environment prompts idea creation. But when we say "the environment", we're talking about such aspects of the environment as the person habitually, or perhaps just currently, pays attention to, as mentioned. So, being an Ne person, one is already primed to begin seeing events, things and people in certain ways. Or is one?

    I'm trying to get at where objectivity fits in the story of particularly extroverted intuition. I know I don't have to be objective until I go public with my ideas, and though paying at least some attention to environmental conditions does help, I also know the only thing stopping me connecting any concept with any other concept at all is interest. Trivial connection aren't interesting. Truly absurd connections aren't (always) interesting either. Meaningful connections are.

    But I suppose every stripe of N user would say that too, that it's meaningful connections that are interesting. However it does seem people are now saying Ni connections in particular can seem bizarre to other N people. And one metaphor that seems to be re-occurring is maplessness. What kind of map? How to share?

    Basically, how does objectivity figure in extroverted intuition? It's there by definition. It must have a characteristic impact, mustn't it? What does it do to and for the intuitions?


    (Or has someone answered this quite clearly already and I haven't spotted it because I'm looking for something subjective?)
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  9. #149
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Ni, Ne, communication...holy...emotion blast..

    I have been riveting myself around this problem. The problem sourced out of me being fucking confused and not understanding whatever my teachers were "poetically"(yeah right) explaining---most of them being Ni-doms(i'm assuming).

    Oh god. Shift in meaning there, shift in meaning here, there and here, there and here...(Wait, which definition are we using? Huh...? What you say? All of them? What?? ARGGHHH!!!). ---> Internal Consistency(TiSi) isn't exactly compatible with perspective shifting.

    Oh look, we see something here! (No you fucking don't!!! It's just your unnecessary imagination! What?..NO! The author wasn't thinking of that when he was writing this! Look! He says exactly what he means!!) ----> Apparently, "Deeper" means "Insanity."

    ...(I have a question...wait..what??...that doesn't fucking relate to my question!!!) ----> I often asks questions that I find easily shows relationships among ideas. They just don't see it. I have to make a speech every-time I ask a question.

    Anyways, my problem is mostly the TiNeSi - NiTeSe clash. INFJ's are easier to communicate with due to Ti, but Ni-heavy INTJ's are just argh...
    Yep, in poetry, the trick is that the meaning gets overlapped, just as in the Schrodinger's Cat analogy. Poetry is "more" meaningful when it says something in a particular way such that it really does mean A and B and C, whether by pun or homonym or synonym or other word play. All the meanings are "true," or close enough to "truth," like words that almost but don't quite rhyme.

    I wonder if you're seeing other meanings and related ideas that contradict the "clearly intended" multiple meanings of the word-plays?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #150
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    That was one of my avatars in the past. Is that meant to illustrate Ni?

    If so, good job. It's a perfect representation of people all coming to the same place starting from different perspectives, and all seeing the same things, but in a different way. The perspective you start from decides which parts make sense to you, and which ones seem "off." And there is always someone working from the opposite perspective, unable to make sense of what you see as functional or good, and able to make good use of what you see as strange or pointless.

    I can find NFJs quite repulsive because our paradigms and axioms are usually opposed: I disdain the other as a matter of choice.
    I would say that our axioms are indeed opposed. Fi/Te vs. Ti/Fe. That's why an INFJs best friend is usually an xNTP, while an INTJs best friend is usually an xNFP.

    I wouldn't be so quick to say that our paradigms are usually opposed, though... usually I find that we use the same paradigm in opposite ways, reflecting our opposite needs. That may actually be MORE disconcerting than having opposing paradigms, though.

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