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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #131
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    And Uumlau, the least you can do is take me with you down that rabbit hole, instead of assuming I'll find it on my own *sulks*
    I did. You just assumed I was wrong, or joking, or telling a fanciful tale, or that I meant a rabbit hole you could see. That's the problem with assumptions. I can't take you if I don't know which assumptions of yours make the rabbit hole invisible to you. Should I know which assumptions to drop, and I tell you to drop them, then you react as if destroyed the world, when all I've done is try to bring you to a new world.

    Ni is traveling through all the possible hypothetical (parallel) worlds, even as it seems focused on a single point in this world, while Ne is traveling everywhere possible in this world. Ne needs to let go of this world (however briefly) to see the parallel Ni worlds. Ni needs to focus on this world in order to see where Ne is going.

    Happily, it really isn't that hard for either of us to change gears, and share visions between Ne and Ni; it's just rare to meet others who truly challenge us to do so.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #132
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Hehe, actually, I was talking in general
    I do get where you're coming from and I love seeing your side of things, but yeah, in general, I've found that Ni-users tend to forget to take along their passengers. And yeah, it takes me a while to realize where I'm at when I'm trying to see your pov...especially what way we're exactly going and where we came from, as you guys do the opposite thing from us

    It's interesting you guys look at it that way. If I'dve made that metaphor I'dve said that Ne-users visit all possible worlds out there but only look at their surface area, whereas Ni-users turn this world inside out and upside down, turning it into a maze for all their passengers to follow, but definitely also finding some interesting facts along the way
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  3. #133
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    have we mentioned the conflict of Ni users sounding really pretentious sometimes?
    cause that's the one that gets me


    (not aimed at anyone or any post - inspired by a stuck-up Ni user IRL)

  4. #134
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    What happened, skylights?

  5. #135
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    It's interesting you guys look at it that way. If I'dve made that metaphor I'dve said that Ne-users visit all possible worlds out there but only look at their surface area, whereas Ni-users turn this world inside out and upside down, turning it into a maze for all their passengers to follow, but definitely also finding some interesting facts along the way
    I get the possible worlds idea for Ne. Tweak this, change that, stick to a worldly structure, and there's the possibility. The thing we're attending to right now could be like this other thing in this other worldly other world. And, Shazaam, we have the meaning of the thing and therefore some content to be going on with. But I don't get the turning it into a maze thing for Ni. Could it be that Ni stuff is maze-like because it determinedly does not maintain world-like structure? Included in the Ni content are no (obvious) points of reference signalling which possible world the possibility came from, and this makes it mysterious?

    But all N works by leaps and bounds, and these leaps and bounds aren't formally random. So how does Ne not seem maze-like to Ne people? By what leap of content do you make your connections?
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  6. #136
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Example: NTPs have ruined philosophy.

    The western conceptual analysis version of philosophy is so dominated by NTP style cogitating that one can actually identify large chunks of philosophical and logical tradition with cognitive functions.

    Even possible worlds can be found in philosophical logic. Freaking Alvin Plantinga if not invented them, then at least popularised them. They're used for working out such esoteric philosophical problems as free will and the existence of god. And he has NTP beard,



    so let's just take it for granted that possible worlds are an Ne thing, shall we? Good.

    Okay. As far as I recall from undergrad philontpeee, possible worlds by themselves aren't that special. One requires some bridge between worlds. It was a semantic operator? I forget. But possible worlds make an appearance in semantics for logic anyway, and there needs to be some... what, I forget? Degree of similarity between worlds? Degree of syntactic similarity?

    Bah, whatever!

    Anyway, see? The objective element linking possibilities.
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  7. #137
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So what is Ne anyway?
    Here's where I'm at with Ni... [...]
    So, what is Ne? One assumes... It begins with the world. [...]
    Or is it something else?
    This is more or less how I understand them, too. Ne isn't that objective, though. It's a colored view of the world, mixed up with associations, experiences, worldview,... For real, untainted observations you need Se.

    If I study or try to solve a problem, I usually use lots of scrap paper or build a model - a real-life one, not a mental model. I'm more productive at writing when I use a pen and paper. Ne works both ways, linking between the inside and the outside world. An observation can set off an association chain, like: Yellowstone sulphurous pools are impressive - if I ever need a description of hell - and what if you get lost in such a landscape and the only movement you see comes from vapour and bubbling mud - ...
    So can an inside prompt (maybe by Ti?): I don't understand the Coriolis laws for moving reference frames - draw some of them - still don't see it - in which plane was this angle, again? - build a 3D model - ...
    I think Ne is creative rather than bent on understanding. The "trying to understand" part comes from Ti. A Ne-Fi combo will get other sorts of ideas. More artistic, maybe, or symbolic? Finding meaning behind the facts?

    Ni users (Kalach?): do you build mental models rather than real-life ones? Do you understand things without drawing or sounding them out?
    The description of "possibilities" seems to me a very accurate one. Like a tree branching out to all sorts of scenarios and the branches intertwined after a while. Does it get too complicated after a while? To me, it does very often. I get lost among possibilities if I don't cut it off. Or, if I really want to get some view, I need to list them either on paper or by telling them to somebody... so by using the outside world as a sounding board... by using Ne instead of Ni.
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  8. #138
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    This is more or less how I understand them, too. Ne isn't that objective, though. It's a colored view of the world, mixed up with associations, experiences, worldview,... For real, untainted observations you need Se.

    If I study or try to solve a problem, I usually use lots of scrap paper or build a model - a real-life one, not a mental model.
    To make an external, concrete focus point?

    Hmmmm, mental models.... probably. Staged externalisation of ideas, such as, say, posting theories on a forum, helps a lot. It satisfies some requirement that when left unaddressed tends to block productivity. But I know this primarily to be extroverted thinking (with a little bit of extraverted sensing thrown in). Does it read like the regurgitation of some pre-formed model? Then I guess there was some modelling going on somewhere.

    I think Ne is creative rather than bent on understanding. The "trying to understand" part comes from Ti. A Ne-Fi combo will get other sorts of ideas. More artistic, maybe, or symbolic? Finding meaning behind the facts?
    That's interesting. And fits with N being perception, not judgment. But of particular interest is this "creative". One description of Ne has it that Ne users suggest associations to others (or themselves) to see what will come of them. But what's being created?
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  9. #139
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    To make an external, concrete focus point?
    Yes, that's true. You can argue there's Se peeping around the corner, but why not? The whole process of understanding consists of going from concrete/particular/examples/practical to abstract/general/theories and back again.

    Hmmmm, mental models.... probably. Staged externalisation of ideas, such as, say, posting theories on a forum, helps a lot. It satisfies some requirement that when left unaddressed tends to block productivity. But I know this primarily to be extroverted thinking (with a little bit of extraverted sensing thrown in). Does it read like the regurgitation of some pre-formed model?
    No, not really. But why not? Even primarily Ni users are allowed to construct models while discussing :-) I always thought of NiTe as "this behavior will get me to my goal, even if you don't see it yet" while NeTi = "let's explore a forest of ideas and see which ones make sense".

    That's interesting. And fits with N being perception, not judgment. But of particular interest is this "creative". One description of Ne has it that Ne users suggest associations to others (or themselves) to see what will come of them. But what's being created?
    Ideas. Mostly bogus ones, which are fun but not necessarily used. That's where the judging functions come in: they take on the "good" ones and stop the impossible ones from being executed (not always if Ne is your dominant :-) which results in those unfinished projects).
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  10. #140
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I get the possible worlds idea for Ne. Tweak this, change that, stick to a worldly structure, and there's the possibility. The thing we're attending to right now could be like this other thing in this other worldly other world. And, Shazaam, we have the meaning of the thing and therefore some content to be going on with. But I don't get the turning it into a maze thing for Ni. Could it be that Ni stuff is maze-like because it determinedly does not maintain world-like structure? Included in the Ni content are no (obvious) points of reference signalling which possible world the possibility came from, and this makes it mysterious?

    But all N works by leaps and bounds, and these leaps and bounds aren't formally random. So how does Ne not seem maze-like to Ne people? By what leap of content do you make your connections?
    I actually never claimed that Ne doesn't make 'mazes'. But it feels more like running ahead of you and you getting lost, vs Ni sticking close by but using trap doors that they conveniently forget to share the info on. I have just as much trouble following ENTPs, maybe even more, even though we share Ne. But they make my head spin, and vice versa. In fact, even with fellow ENFPs, when you both go Ne-ing, unless you were in sync to begin with, it's a lost cause, coz they go exploring the world on the right and you go exploring the world on the left and hop around the next world without informing the other. Communication is key.

    With Ni-users it's even more frustrating to me coz I can *feel* they're close by but there's like a trap door or a glass wall inbetween. I can see what they mean but I don't know how to sync up...and the longer I take, the more chances I have of getting trapped in this maze while they find their way and I'm stuck. There needs to be a sync-up in the beginning and it needs to be maintained..kinda like a rope connecting us. The thing is that the sync up is easier to get with fellow Ne-users, especially ENFPs as they share the same preferred perspective on the world, so it's easier to go, ok this is point 0, the starting point. With Ni-users I can feel like we have that ground then suddenly they go off and I'm like..I'm not sure we have the same starting point here!!!
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