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Thread: Ne/Ni Conflicts

  1. #111
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So I started thinking about it this way recently: the possible and the conceptual.

    There's a simple case for saying Ne is all about the possible and Ni is all about the conceptual. Namely, Ne is (mostly) responsive to environmental cues and Ni (mostly) isn't. Both, formally speaking, are dealing with possibilities and with the conceptual form of things, but Ne sticks much closer to the environment and Ni runs much further from it. So Ne it seems will take more for granted and Ni will take less. Ni necessarily moves into the realm of unattached concepts and Ne sticks with conceptual overlays.

    Depth and breadth, suckers.
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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Generally, I don't have a problem with Ne. The only NP types I really don't get along with are INFPs with creepy values. and I blame that on Fi. ENFPs can be frustrating if we disagree, but often we end up arguing and then seeing the validity of each others perspectives. They seem more open-minded, but we have to have the argument, go over everything, and get it out in the open. There's no immediate understanding like I get with Ni, Fe, or Ti users.

    If I have a disagreement with an NTP, it usually seems to come from their Si. Their perception of possibilities seems limited by something from the past that I don't place importance on. Whereas I'm sure that I frustrate them when I seem limited to focusing on and extrapolating from details of the present (Se) that they believe can be changed. If I want to defend my Ni, I have to present several scenarios that negate the Si assumptions their Ne is operating from, and then they'll see it. It usually gets them to acknowledge that it's a valid perspective, at least.

    The important thing to remember is that it's not just an Ne/Ni conflict. It's an Ni/Se vs. Si/Ne conflict. And it's never just an Fi/Fe conflict, it's always an Ti/Fe vs. Fi/Te conflict. That's how I've come to see it. You have to take the whole stack into account.

  3. #113
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    Ahhh, 12 pages, my mind is bleeding. Why did i read all of it?

    Oh but the point. Only time ive had a "Ni/Ne conflict" was debating with an ENTJ. Generally it was both of us in the end meaning the same thing but arriving there by very different routes. So ill talk of the conflict between NTJ and an NTP. Theres Ni and Ne there, so guess this isnt off topic.

    Someone from some mbti forum used this "making a snowman" metaphor to explain the difference between INTP and ENTP, if it was this forum, sorry for stealing your metaphor, im sincerely as sorry as an INTP can be. But why im stealing the metaphor is that i see it explains the difference between NTJ and NTP quite nicely. Now ive lost the point again, okay. So i didnt see our disagreements as a conflict of Ni and Ne, but as conflicts of Ti/Ni and Te/Ne.

    I see it like? An NTP gathers a massive cube of snow (Ne) , and then carves out a snowman from the cube (Ti). An NTJ makes balls of snow to work as pieces of the snowman (Te), and then assembles those into a snowman (Ni). Both have a similar result, i really like the simplicity of that.

    So basically an NTP creates a massive blob of unrelated facts with Ne and carves out the final solution with Ti. And an NTJ gathers "little solutions" or "truths" with Te, and knits them together into a final solution with Ni. To me that explains why sometimes i have very hard time keeping up with NTJ's thoughts. My gathered information is broad and unsolved mess, their information is a vast amount of little already sort of solved pieces.

    And well? Fi and Fe might work just as fine there? The gathered information would just be more F'ish. So i dont see a conflict between Ni and Ne, but a conflict between the introverted functions and the extroverted functions? Both Ne and Te in MY MIND are the information gatherer functions, and Ti and Ni are "the information molding final solution" functions.

    Makes sense to me, but then i also like mustard on cucumber, so not sure if i should be trusted.

  4. #114
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barlwooh View Post
    Ahhh, 12 pages, my mind is bleeding. Why did i read all of it?

    Oh but the point. Only time ive had a "Ni/Ne conflict" was debating with an ENTJ. Generally it was both of us in the end meaning the same thing but arriving there by very different routes. So ill talk of the conflict between NTJ and an NTP. Theres Ni and Ne there, so guess this isnt off topic.

    Someone from some mbti forum used this "making a snowman" metaphor to explain the difference between INTP and ENTP, if it was this forum, sorry for stealing your metaphor, im sincerely as sorry as an INTP can be. But why im stealing the metaphor is that i see it explains the difference between NTJ and NTP quite nicely. Now ive lost the point again, okay. So i didnt see our disagreements as a conflict of Ni and Ne, but as conflicts of Ti/Ni and Te/Ne.

    I see it like? An NTP gathers a massive cube of snow (Ne) , and then carves out a snowman from the cube (Ti). An NTJ makes balls of snow to work as pieces of the snowman (Te), and then assembles those into a snowman (Ni). Both have a similar result, i really like the simplicity of that.

    So basically an NTP creates a massive blob of unrelated facts with Ne and carves out the final solution with Ti. And an NTJ gathers "little solutions" or "truths" with Te, and knits them together into a final solution with Ni. To me that explains why sometimes i have very hard time keeping up with NTJ's thoughts. My gathered information is broad and unsolved mess, their information is a vast amount of little already sort of solved pieces.

    And well? Fi and Fe might work just as fine there? The gathered information would just be more F'ish. So i dont see a conflict between Ni and Ne, but a conflict between the introverted functions and the extroverted functions? Both Ne and Te in MY MIND are the information gatherer functions, and Ti and Ni are "the information molding final solution" functions.

    Makes sense to me, but then i also like mustard on cucumber, so not sure if i should be trusted.
    So you're saying NTJ snowmen have balls but NTP snowmen are cut?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So you're saying NTJ snowmen have balls but NTP snowmen are cut?
    Exactly.

  6. #116
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    We might want to circumcise circumscribe such double-entendres.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So I started thinking about it this way recently: the possible and the conceptual.

    There's a simple case for saying Ne is all about the possible and Ni is all about the conceptual. Namely, Ne is (mostly) responsive to environmental cues and Ni (mostly) isn't. Both, formally speaking, are dealing with possibilities and with the conceptual form of things, but Ne sticks much closer to the environment and Ni runs much further from it. So Ne it seems will take more for granted and Ni will take less. Ni necessarily moves into the realm of unattached concepts and Ne sticks with conceptual overlays.

    Depth and breadth, suckers.
    Ne is about enviroment and gathering information, Ni isnt. Both deal with possibilities and conceptual form of things, but Ne just processes information around you, Ni processes and fits together Te based assumptions. Ne takes crap for granted cos it just takes everything in, Ni moves around with concepts that are constructed with other functions. Depth and breadth.

    I somehow see the snowman metaphor here too, sort of similar outcome, if i got what you were saying correctly. Your snowman just has balls of wisdom, mine has a confusing messy blob.

  8. #118
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Both snowmen are well constructed. I very much like the metaphor that Ti takes a huge blob of Ne data and cuts out a cohesive set that makes sense, while Ni instead builds a snowman out of distinct Te balls of snow. The latter is entirely valid with respect to how I regard my own thought processes, and the former makes the seemingly random thought processes of INTPs make sense to me.

    The one spot where I would disagree with Barlwooh's characterization is the notion of "Te based assumptions." The vast majority of assumptions are in Ni, not Te. Te, no matter how judgmental it might feel to others, is very much about empirical data, and thus it is readily dropped if more recent data is regarded as more accurate. The Ni assumptions are not as obvious, based on how things "fit together" rather than how things "are." The problem with the NiTe snowman is that it will be assembled incorrectly.

    Correspondingly, the problem with the TiNe snowman is that it will be carved incorrectly, as the assumptions are largely in Ti, not Ne.

    These are just metaphors of course. Neither is "better." Rather, each tends toward the same truth, each with its own boundaries upon what the truth may be.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #119
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    The way I look at it, each intuitive function opens the field of vision in the way that the sensing function allows it to open. Ni's focus is incidental to Se's insistence on concrete details. Ne's relational attitude is based on Si's unwillingness to redefine anything. If Si will not allow you to change your definitions about something, you must expland outward to other items via Ne. If Se will not allow you to look at more information, that forces intuition into an introverted form where it looks deeper rather than wider.

    Of course, being dominant in ENPs and INJs, it could be just the opposite, with intuition determing sensing's orientation. Either way, it is what it is because it's counterpart is what it is. Just as Te/Fi and Fe/Ti are inherently linked to each other, so are Se/Ni and Ne/Si. If you understand what Se is, it's easy to determine what Ni must be. Same goes for Si and Ne.

    Of course, this is just my perspective. I might be doing a lousy job explaining it, or a similar idea may have already been shared by somebody else. Either way, there it is.
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  10. #120
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barlwooh View Post
    And well? Fi and Fe might work just as fine there? The gathered information would just be more F'ish. So i dont see a conflict between Ni and Ne, but a conflict between the introverted functions and the extroverted functions? Both Ne and Te in MY MIND are the information gatherer functions, and Ti and Ni are "the information molding final solution" functions.
    Yes. I've always thought of the extroverted functions as being the "true" versions of their respective category. In other words, Te/Fe are inherently more "judging" than Ti or Fi because they create plans of action, and Se and Ne are "truer" perceiving functions because they are expanding the mind, perceiving new information rather than just changing perspective on pre-existing information.
    You lose.

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