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  1. #1
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    Default What would make an ESFP go crazy?

    Wondering what the tertiary for an ESFP would look like? What about their shadow functions?

    Similarly, what would these look like for an ESTP?

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    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Simple-do something that they would find practicularly annoying until they burst. Their gut reaction will be to eliminate you as fast as possible.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I've found ESFPs to be mercurial. They seem to want to keep everything happy and enjoyable and engaging on the surface... but clamping down on their P and/or crossing their F values can lead to either depression OR an explosion... after which, without it even needing to be resolved per se, they can float back into their "happy" self again.

    Te is the tertiary for ESFP. It's an anchoring function. I see them use it to get structure in their lives / create stability. Once ESFPs get channeled, I see some of them have a lot of doggedness and focus on some goal they have in mine and they "Te" things to get there.

    Ni is the inferior. With S primaries, N is the inferior, and what I commonly see is unrealistic intuitions consuming their attention and creating a lot of fear. When S types get thrown for a loop, they can get caught in a "fear" cycle because they cannot "realistically imagine" the future and just become scared of EVERYTHING.

    My ESFP son had to work through a particular change in his life, and the day he found out, he couldn't sleep -- he laid in bed projecting ahead years and years and couldn't stop. What if this happens? What if that happens? What if? What if? All of these fears had the same priority in his head because he couldn't prioritize them or determine their likelihood. Possibility = probability to him, which actually isn't true. Te is great at working issues to their conclusion, but Ti helps put things in balance and sensing the inherent truth of something to begin with.

    ESTPs can get into a fear cycle too, but the Ti presence as secondary seems to reduce the "irrationality" of the fear cycle. The tertiary is Fe -- ESTPs are great wheelers and dealers, like Tieger says they are within the TP group, which uses Fe to implement their T goals and so they can LOOK social and engage without it being their primary purpose. Another thing that surprised me when I saw it was how committed/loyal ESTPs seem to be to groups, despite their typical pragmatism; one assumption could be that this just comes from a stabilizing Fe tertiary.

    For ESxP, the Ni inferior also can lead to massive misreading of someone's intentions; there can be a high level of accusation/suspicion of someone's motives if they do something the ESxP doesn't or is offended by. ESFP hates negativity, so they'll shy away from those accusations unless they're blown a gasket; but I think you can expect ESTP to more actively pursue those suspicions especially in a social context where "games" are being played and people are jockeying for position.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    "But why is the rum gone!?"



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    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Jennifer- your post reminded me of a discussion in my old blog with Athenian about Ni... I was complaining about the same, uncommon word keeping appearing as a common thread in my day... I found it unsettling and did not know WHY that would happen- by that point I would have happily tracked down the last guy to use the word and held a lit cigarette over his eye until he came up with some explanation as to why it was unsettling me so much

    Those weird little things that snag life a bit and catch your attention, but you can't really put your finger on them and since you can't put your finger on them you can't DO anything about them... that drives me crazy

    the worst part is the rational fear that I'm only being paranoid and that there's no logic to getting that upset

    And tertiary Fe? Why do you think that my past jobs have involved sales or customer service
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I've found ESFPs to be mercurial. They seem to want to keep everything happy and enjoyable and engaging on the surface... but clamping down on their P and/or crossing their F values can lead to either depression OR an explosion... after which, without it even needing to be resolved per se, they can float back into their "happy" self again.
    This makes a lot of sense. In this ESFPs life she could totally explode and then answer the phone like nothing happened!

    Te is the tertiary for ESFP. It's an anchoring function. I see them use it to get structure in their lives / create stability. Once ESFPs get channeled, I see some of them have a lot of doggedness and focus on some goal they have in mine and they "Te" things to get there.
    Again this explains her amazing ability to cross every t and dot every i. She also LOVED lists.

    Ni is the inferior. With S primaries, N is the inferior, and what I commonly see is unrealistic intuitions consuming their attention and creating a lot of fear. When S types get thrown for a loop, they can get caught in a "fear" cycle because they cannot "realistically imagine" the future and just become scared of EVERYTHING.

    OH MY GOODNESS YES!!! She NEVER slept and was always worrying about everything! The most fearful and yet brave person I ever met. (Very contradictory) It all makes sense now!

    ESTPs can get into a fear cycle too, but the Ti presence as secondary seems to reduce the "irrationality" of the fear cycle. The tertiary is Fe -- ESTPs are great wheelers and dealers, like Tieger says they are within the TP group, which uses Fe to implement their T goals and so they can LOOK social and engage without it being their primary purpose. Another thing that surprised me when I saw it was how committed/loyal ESTPs seem to be to groups, despite their typical pragmatism; one assumption could be that this just comes from a stabilizing Fe tertiary.

    For ESxP, the Ni inferior also can lead to massive misreading of someone's intentions; there can be a high level of accusation/suspicion of someone's motives if they do something the ESxP doesn't or is offended by. ESFP hates negativity, so they'll shy away from those accusations unless they're blown a gasket; but I think you can expect ESTP to more actively pursue those suspicions especially in a social context where "games" are being played and people are jockeying for position.
    She still could be ESTP, she was not much of a joiner, but considered herself a wheeler and dealer and often spoiled for a fight.

    Which one would try to fight for the underdog? That seemed to be the story of her life. Tear down "the man" and care for the underdog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    "But why is the rum gone!?"
    Oh and in this ESFPs life it would be the Bourbon! LOL!

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    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    wow... thanks for that Jennifer! my so is ESFP and i see a lot of what you wrote in him. he gets these irrational fears, which can totally freeze him. "talking sense" into him doesn't help in those situations at all. it only gets worse, as he accuses me of being cold, interfering and reckless. being with him has really helped me develop my patience and get to the point where i feel like i can handle these situations better.

    he's also the most stubborn person i've ever met in my life. he rarely really thinks ahead, rationally anyway... and he's very determined about his ways. it's pretty impossible to get him to understand your point of view, unless you give good examples and the time is right... he can get very irritable and emotional at times... often completely confusing me.

    on the other hand, he's very lovable. he can make me laugh and usually he's just mellow, laid-back and happy. also, he can be very practical and when he sets his mind to something, he usually excells at it. he doesn't give up easily when doing a task he's determined to finish. he's open, creative, imaginative and unconventional, not superficial in the slightest... he's very loyal to the people close to him, very gentle and many times can go out of his way to make people around him happy.

    he just seems to not have much ambition/ sense about his goals in life... even though it kind of seems like he does, because he talks about it sometimes (usually when i ask him, rarely initiating that conversation himself)... but i feel like he gets stuck in instant pleasures and his sometimes irrational feelings that he can't put aside. sometimes it seems to me that he doesn't have "long term direction", or that he hasn't got a map and a compass, if that makes sense... he doesn't seem to control himself much at all, but just goes with the flow.

    if i talk to him about these things he usually just shuts himself out, but still he doesn't seem depressed. it's like he does some things just because he has to and when he absolutely has to, not because it would be good for him to do them.

    it's like he rarely thinks things through, or it just seems like that to me... he doesn't analyze his own life. it seems like many things that are important to me, aren't that to him. i feel like i'm in a difficult situation, because i love him a lot and i know he loves me, but our life isn't exactly as stable as i would like it to be.

    any ideas to understand him better, or help the situation? i'm really willing to work on this.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windigo View Post
    Which one would try to fight for the underdog? That seemed to be the story of her life. Tear down "the man" and care for the underdog.
    ESFP has more direct emotional sympathy, ESTP tends to be better at taking action. It can easily cross over, you're just going to see more drift on the T/F line.

    ESTP is more likely to FRAME it in an intellectual way as you've stated here (we have to tear down the man, we have to care for these people); it really comes off as a rational decision, and they can articulate in T-friendly language their logic... although sometimes you wonder if they came up with it after they already made their decision.

    ESFP typically emotes a lot (as an EFP type) and you'll get the same feeling but less intellectualized. I tend to see the reasoning less articulated, with more focus on the general value. ("We have to take care of these people! It's just wrong!")

    I'm just sketching here, but I think the T/F will be more obvious in how they EXPLAIN their values and the logic they use.

    ESFPs do feel more vulnerable than ESTPs, who come off as pretty scrappy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    wow... thanks for that Jennifer! my so is ESFP and i see a lot of what you wrote in him. he gets these irrational fears, which can totally freeze him. "talking sense" into him doesn't help in those situations at all. it only gets worse, as he accuses me of being cold, interfering and reckless. being with him has really helped me develop my patience and get to the point where i feel like i can handle these situations better.

    he's also the most stubborn person i've ever met in my life. he rarely really thinks ahead, rationally anyway... and he's very determined about his ways. it's pretty impossible to get him to understand your point of view, unless you give good examples and the time is right... he can get very irritable and emotional at times... often completely confusing me.
    Verbatim, yes. For me, dealing with my ESFP kid (as opposed to my INTP and INFJ kids) has been very very difficult for me. I had to learn an entirely new way to relate and I still feel inadequate. My kid is still a kid, your SO is an adult, so hopefully your SO can meet you halfway.

    In general, though, I have to engage him on a feelings level. Be with him, listen to him, let him dump, be very careful how I impose a thinking view on him. Even when I try, he can get irritable if he feels unheard or he THINKS his feelings are not being considered; and sometimes I feel like he is demanding that I do not evaluate anything he says, he just wants a "free pass" to do what he pleases. Which won't work.

    I guess the thing is that he can't skip over processing his emotions and offended values, he actually has to vent them and get them out of his system, as if the bad feelings were poison, so that he can feel better. I also have to turn the thinking values around so that they're couched in ways that fit with his values or benefit him in some way.

    I know that's vague...but it's actually pretty hard for me. (I was the opposite when young; I shoved my feelings aside and just did what I thought I either had to do or what made sense to me, because of my sense of responsibility; I toughed things out. My son tends to fall to pieces if he is emotionally upset over something and can't just push it aside.)

    on the other hand, he's very lovable. he can make me laugh and usually he's just mellow, laid-back and happy. also, he can be very practical and when he sets his mind to something, he usually excells at it. he doesn't give up easily when doing a task he's determined to finish. he's open, creative, imaginative and unconventional, not superficial in the slightest... he's very loyal to the people close to him, very gentle and many times can go out of his way to make people around him happy.
    Totally. Totally totally totally.

    he just seems to not have much ambition/ sense about his goals in life... even though it kind of seems like he does, because he talks about it sometimes (usually when i ask him, rarely initiating that conversation himself)... but i feel like he gets stuck in instant pleasures and his sometimes irrational feelings that he can't put aside. sometimes it seems to me that he doesn't have "long term direction", or that he hasn't got a map and a compass, if that makes sense... he doesn't seem to control himself much at all, but just goes with the flow.
    Yup, keep going.

    it's like he rarely thinks things through, or it just seems like that to me... he doesn't analyze his own life. it seems like many things that are important to me, aren't that to him. i feel like i'm in a difficult situation, because i love him a lot and i know he loves me, but our life isn't exactly as stable as i would like it to be.
    i think the internal world can be scary for some E's, and I've seen my son avoid introspection; he's scared of what he might find, and it's so abstract he doesn't understand it either. he wants to get his hands on things instead. Going inside is hard. He did take up drawing, though, and can do it for hours on end. I like that for him, because it's "alone time" and he's just quietly sitting there for once, absorbed in his work and thoughts. I think it is good for him, balance wise.

    .... I would respond more right now but I'm exhausted and not thinking clearly... but maybe some other people? And maybe I'll come back later.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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