User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 72

Thread: NiFi Loop

  1. #41
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And what exactly makes it worse?
    The shadows are worse, because they are suppressed areas of consciousness. They come up under stress, often in an erratic fashion.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #42
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,750

    Default

    If you're conscious of shadow, why is it so "bad"? If anything, shadow is worth assimilating even if it makes you a nutjob for awhile. Assimilation could give you an almost three dimensional view which can only strengthen your primary strengths. From a "T" perspective, both Te and Ti view can be dare I say, logisized? (Beat me with a wet noodle for mangling a word, go ahead!)

    Not a fan of complete opposite assimilations, like trying to incorporate too much feeling in your decision-making process. If anything, this would cause greater conflict and for Fi-users, internal harmony is important especially if attempting objective thought is a priority value.

    Or maybe I'm full of poop, rationalising the impossible. And yet Jung too, felt it was possible.

  3. #43
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    7,839

    Default

    I’ve done a good amount of thinking on the idea of loops over the last year or so, and here are some of my observations:

    1. First, you have to figure out whether you want to define a loop as something inherently problematic or not. I would advise going with the route of it not being inherently problematic: that it can have both positive and negative sides to it.

    2. Second, I would recommend you figure out whether there's any difference between the idea of two functions of the same attitudinal direction working in conjunction with one another and the idea of a loop existing between those two functions. I would suggest there is, but I'm not quite certain what the distinguishing characteristic(s) would be. The first two that come to mind are: 1) a relationship of high degree (with a loop signifying two functions with same attitudinal direction working in tandem with one another to a high degree), and 2) the notion that there is some sort of feedback loop/response/dynamic that is going on between the two functions, causing each of them to function in a way that would not be expected of them if they were not acting in a loop (i.e, acting either solo or in conjunction with another function [of either attitudinal direction] in a non-loop dynamic). These two distinctions are not mutually exclusive, and I guess the latter is really the more important of the two, as the former is more or less a byproduct of the latter.

      (Side note: one could postulate that a low-degree feedback loop might exist, but it might be hard to distinguish such a low-degree loop from a normal working dynamic between two functions, not to mention the fact that any low-degree dynamic between two functions [whether of the same attitudinal direction or different attitudinal direction, and regardless of whether they represent a loop] would be hard to discover/recognize/notice in the first place, due to its low degree, and that, if the loop is of a low-degree, then we must ask ourselves whether there really is a feedback loop/response/dynamic in play in the first place… [as one would expect a loop to likely continually increase in degree so long as the dynamic continues])

    3. Third, I think it should be mentioned that an Ni+Fi (or NiFi) loop should be distinguished from a Fi+Ni (or FiNi) loop (and the same would go for all the other possible loop combinations). One would expect the two loops to be rather similar, but due to the fact that the more dominant process in one is different than the more dominant process in the other (and the same obviously goes for the less dominant processes in each), one might also reasonably expect there to be some kind of difference between the two. I have not spent enough time exploring this idea, but I do think it holds some water.

    4. Fourth, the idea of a loop is regaled by some and reviled by others, and the reason for the difference in opinion seems to split along the lines of what I have dubbed the strict constructionist vs. loose constructionist divide: i.e., the divide between people who believe in the eight cognitive functions but doubt the dominant model of functional ordering/stacking and those who believe in both the eight cognitive functions and the dominant model of functional ordering/stacking.

    Anyway, with those notes having been made, the Ni+Fi loop is the dominant loop for the INTJ, and the auxiliary loop for the ENTJ...

    (I wrote this all in a word doc a couple weeks ago, but never finished it; I figure I might as well put it out there; maybe I'll finish it later.)
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  4. #44
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEI
    Posts
    2,399

    Default

    ^ concerning Fi/Ni and Ni/Fi loops, they are bundled together because in the negative loop theory you are using each of these two functions to a similar degree. Fi is just as high as Ni and vice versa. Also, it becomes negative when you don't balance it out with an extroverted function. The extroverted functions are necessary to the introverted functions and vice versa, otherwise a person becomes incredibly unbalanced. If they are an extrovert and relying too heavily on say Ne and Te, but not enough Fi, you can expect that person to feel lost and disconnected from their own self. Ne and Te start waging war on the exterior of this person and the interior world drifts farther away.

    I'd have to hear actual examples of how looping can be positive and not negative. I've experienced negative looping and can only see it in that light, unless you want to be a real optimist and say I learned a thing or two from the experience.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    If you're conscious of shadow, why is it so "bad"? If anything, shadow is worth assimilating even if it makes you a nutjob for awhile. Assimilation could give you an almost three dimensional view which can only strengthen your primary strengths.
    Well, the whole problem of the shadow is that most people are not conscious of it. They have not assimilated it. So it comes up in a rash, negative fashion.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  6. #46
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    7,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, the whole problem of the shadow is that most people are not conscious of it. They have not assimilated it. So it comes up in a rash, negative fashion.
    Are we talking about Jung's idea of the shadow, or the idea of the shadow the we always talk about on here (INTJ/ENTP, INTP/ENTJ, ISFP/ESFJ, etc.)?

    And is Jung's idea of the shadow necessarily even related to typology and the shadow functions?
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  7. #47
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,428

    Default

    Well, the stuff we talk about here is based on Jung, because those type pairs are those whose primary functions are in each others' shadow. The shadow is what the ego suppresses from consciousness, and those functions considered "shadow" are the ones most suppressed by the ego.
    So what I was saying, was that the ENTP's NeTiFeSi are normally suppressed to the INTJ, so if they do come up, they will often be rash.
    An INTJ might get into an NiFi loop, and it might be a bit problematic, because it is an overly introverted cycle that lacks for the external input Te is supposed to provide.

    But that same NiFi loop will be even more problematic for the ENTP, because those are the totally suppressed functions for him. So when they come up, they will likely be even more unhealthy.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  8. #48
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,750

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Are we talking about Jung's idea of the shadow, or the idea of the shadow the we always talk about on here (INTJ/ENTP, INTP/ENTJ, ISFP/ESFJ, etc.)?

    And is Jung's idea of the shadow necessarily even related to typology and the shadow functions?
    Isn't Jung's idea of shadow where Beebe draws some of his inspiration from (not that I can take Beebe's work to heart or mind)?

  9. #49
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,716

    Default

    Jung considered all of the functions that were not yet differentiated to part of the "shadow."

    If one adopts the function orders that are commonly used (e.g., INTJ = Ni, Te, Fi, Se), then these "loops" have nothing to do with the shadow, but might involve an undifferentiated function. After all, INTJs don't appear to have "Si+Ti" issues. So, continuing with the INTJ example, then Ni is differentiated, and Fi may or may not be differentiated. The "loop" concept comes from neither Ni nor Fi being extroverted, so if the "solution" to the "Ni Fi problem" lies outside of oneself, one will continue to "loop" internally, never arriving at a valid conclusion. Similarly, for ENTP, if the solution to an "Ne Fe problem" lies inside of oneself, one will continue to "loop" externally, never arriving at a valid conclusion. In most modern MBTI theory, the "problems" of a type lie in the lack of differentiation/development of the auxiliary function (Te for the INTJ), which means that one is either extremely introverted and thus lacks a reasonable grounding in objective reality, or extremely extroverted and lacks self-understanding.

    If one actually differentiates the functions involved, the "loop" aspect disappears. Ni+Fi can be a source of (subjective) wisdom, balanced by solid Te logic, and Ne+Fe can be a strong empirical appreciation of people, balanced by an internal Ti ideal.

  10. #50
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    If you're conscious of shadow, why is it so "bad"? If anything, shadow is worth assimilating even if it makes you a nutjob for awhile. Assimilation could give you an almost three dimensional view which can only strengthen your primary strengths. From a "T" perspective, both Te and Ti view can be dare I say, logisized? (Beat me with a wet noodle for mangling a word, go ahead!)

    Not a fan of complete opposite assimilations, like trying to incorporate too much feeling in your decision-making process. If anything, this would cause greater conflict and for Fi-users, internal harmony is important especially if attempting objective thought is a priority value.

    Or maybe I'm full of poop, rationalising the impossible. And yet Jung too, felt it was possible.
    From what I have seen, when the shadowy parts emerge-they do so in ways that are not productive. By being aware that what you are working through is a shadow-it allows you to recognize it as such and choose more consciously if you want to allow the shadow to part to continue emerging. If you choose to allow it to emerge, it also allows you to practice learning to use those aspects of self more productively. I suppose-by recognizing the shadow-it becomes less of a shadow. In typically Ni fashion, Jung seemed very hesitant to tie this to any concrete typological foundation-at least in the texts I have read. I suspect he recognized that shadows/complexes are highly individualized, regardless of type.

    However it seems that when I try and use Fe-even in tiny bits-the answers given up by my mind violate my own internal Fi values-thus just create frustration and angst.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    ^ concerning Fi/Ni and Ni/Fi loops, they are bundled together because in the negative loop theory you are using each of these two functions to a similar degree. Fi is just as high as Ni and vice versa. Also, it becomes negative when you don't balance it out with an extroverted function. The extroverted functions are necessary to the introverted functions and vice versa, otherwise a person becomes incredibly unbalanced. If they are an extrovert and relying too heavily on say Ne and Te, but not enough Fi, you can expect that person to feel lost and disconnected from their own self. Ne and Te start waging war on the exterior of this person and the interior world drifts farther away.

    I'd have to hear actual examples of how looping can be positive and not negative. I've experienced negative looping and can only see it in that light, unless you want to be a real optimist and say I learned a thing or two from the experience.
    Do you guys think looping is the same thing as overdevelopment or equal development of the aux-tert functions? I seem to be able to recognize both in myself at times and consider myself NeTeFi. If stuck in a loop long enough, would one emerge with permanently altered development? (well at least till the aux catches up a bit later).. I dont feel a sense of lost self, but rather am very wary of emotional exposure choosing logical approaches if possible, but once emotions or values are exposed I am very sensitive and too caring and ridiculously niave.

Similar Threads

  1. Is this dominant Si? or Ti? or Ti-Si loop?
    By Such Irony in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-08-2011, 11:44 AM
  2. How do you get out of the Ti loop of doom?
    By Intricate Mystic in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-23-2010, 02:35 PM
  3. Fe/Se loop???
    By Arclight in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 10-04-2010, 08:35 PM
  4. Ne Te loop...tell me about it.
    By angelhair45 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-22-2010, 12:52 PM
  5. T/F loop
    By Poki in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-23-2010, 10:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts