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Thread: NiFi Loop

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This might be an example of a negative loop.

    This situation is all wrong (Ni) - I am being treated unfairly (Fi) - I think they are out to get me (Ni) - Poor me (Fi) - X terrible thing is going to happen (Ni) - None of it matters because this culture or society's values are screwed up anyway (Fi), etc.

    The key aspect of the scenario is the auxiliary function (say Te) isn't used as a filter in the middle. The person is flipping between two introverted functions without being aligned with the reality of the external world. They are in their own mind flipping between these two introverted perspectives.
    Would this, perhaps, give one a view of the world that made everything seem scary and fucked up and doomed because people have their priorities all wrong? Not in a religious sense, or "oh the end of time is coming"...nothing like that...just a really warped mindset that the world is a frightening, dangerous place to the point of things like panic and agoraphobia, and linkiing it to corruption in collective values?

    How about seeing buildings as monstrous symbols of a greed culture?

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    Senior Member Array IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    IndyAnnaJoan, I've tried to search and it pulled up so many threads that mention loops but don't go indepth into them. If you ever recall the title or key words to search by, please share.
    Found!!

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...disorders.html
    Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders



    People often ask, why can't my top two functions both be introverted (or extroverted)? The answer is that they can, but that this invariably causes personality imbalance/disorders, and if this is the case for you, you may not be the type you think you are.

    Lately I've been noticing that a lot of typological mistakes and misreads are the result of a couple of incorrect assumptions about functional structure. I'd like to dedicate this article to describing the phenomenon known as Dominant-Tertiary Loops, where the natural secondary function is suppressed, poorly developed or otherwise not valued as highly by the individual's ego as the tertiary function.

    First let's remember that the standard function arrangements of the 16 types merely represent the ideal balances for each of sixteen different ways to conceptualize ourselves and reality. In reality, they don't always show up in exactly that order of emphasis. Let's look at an example:

    To start with I'll use my own type, ENTP. Here's our functional breakdown:
    Dominant Ne
    Secondary Ti
    Tertiary Fe
    Inferior Si

    But what happens if Ti is poorly developed? This most commonly happens because the tertiary function's common directional orientation with the dominant can make it seem more comfortable than the secondary! Our perception (obviously) relies on Ne, but with Ti not doing its job, we're forced to relinquish judgment to the tertiary (and less able) Fe.

    We end up with Ne+Fe as the most dominant attitudes. If you don't see why this is a problem, consider the significance of intro/extroversion:



    A balanced psyche requires significant influence from both internal and external stimuli--too much introversion and we retreat entirely into ourselves and ignore all outer world influence to an unhealthy degree; too much extroversion and we are not able to remain in touch with what is important to our subjective internal selves, and become far too dependent upon external conditions and attitudes of others.

    All too commonly I see people make the mistake of assuming that using T more than F automatically makes an xxTx type. In a healthy, balanced individual that's true, but when an ego becomes more dependent on the tertiary than the secondary, that's no longer the case.

    For instance, I once mistook an INFJ for INTJ because he had poor secondary Fe and relied primarily on Ni+Ti. At the time I used only MBTI sliding scales and didn't know functions yet, so since I saw primarily N and T I figured he would be an NT type. To the casual observer he would appear to be using N over S, and T over F, so he must be an NT type, right? Wrong! He is not an NT type unless his iNtuition and Thinking are oriented in opposite directions.

    One really interesting result of this confusion is that each dom-tert loop type starts to look very similar to the dom-tert loop form of the type sharing only its first letter! For example:

    INTJ: Ni (Te) Fi Se

    ISFP: Fi (Se) Ni Te

    This is exactly why many unbalanced personalities have difficulty fitting themselves into a single Jungian archetype. Unsurprisingly, if the INTJ above would improve his Te, and the ISFP would improve his Se, each would balance out the monopoly introverted attitudes currently have on his perspective and lead himself to much greater personal balance and contentment.

    For example: A certain user on typologycentral agonized over her type for months, creating numerous long threads and repeatedly changing her mind. My initial impression was ENFP, which I shared but which she promptly rejected. After reading about function attitudes she described Te and Ne as her most prominent functions--at this point I changed my guess to ESTJ, which may seem like a bizarre jump if you don't understand dom/tert loop functions, but it's really not:

    ENFP: Ne (Fi) Te Si

    ESTJ: Te (Si) Ne Fi

    So if you pick up mainly Ne and Te in someone, don't presume that he's an NT type--in fact, he's probably not. Depending on which is dominant, he is most likely either ENFP (Ne+Te with poor Fi) or ESTJ (Te+Ne with poor Si).

    Ironically, this user's primary personality imbalance was poorly developed secondary Fi--it turned out she actually was an ENFP providing a perfect example of over-dependence on extroverted attitudes. She reported placing far too much emphasis on the approval of others and couldn't introspect enough to figure out which type was really her. Without a strong introverted function she was left a poor sense of individual self, and showed it through her dependence on the opinions of others to determine her type. She was looking everywhere but the right place--inside.

    So how does this over-dependence on introversion (or extroversion) manifest itself in each type? I believe this phenomenon is responsible for (or at least involved with) a lot of common personality disorders:


    ENTP/ESFJ: Ne/Fe or Fe/Ne--Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This type often behaves impulsively and manipulatively, needing constant approval and admiration from others, running around investing in new thing after new thing but never developing the self-confidence of a strong subjective perspective. Fe used negatively may use its awareness of the cultural standards of others to intentionally offend or upset them, in order to service Ne's curiosity about the patterns in their responses. If Ti/Si were working properly, it would give the user a balancing sense of personal, subjective importance and free him of his dependence upon the adulation and unconditional acceptance of others. (Horrible example: Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.)


    INTP/ISFJ: Ti/Si or Si/Ti--Schizotypal Personality Disorder. I see this most commonly in INTP dom/tert loops (Ti+Si), resulting in totally giving up on attempting to obtain the social/interpersonal connections that inferior Fe drives them to unconsciously desire. Schizotypal people are seen (and typically see themselves) as having such unusual thoughts and behaviors that widespread social acceptance is nearly impossible. Ti thinks, "I cannot find any logical explanation for social rituals" and Si reinforces this self-isolating, risk-averse behavior by constantly reminding the user: "Remember how badly this went last time you tried?" If Ne were doing its job, it would remind the user to continue experimenting to find a new approach. In the ISFJ version, Si becomes ultra risk-averse and refuses to try anything new or unfamiliar. If Fe were doing its job, the ISFJ would learn that some risk is necessary in order to uphold obligations to others and avoid living in total solitude. Deep down, these types really do want social connection and ritual (Fe), but have found themselves so poor at it that they simply give up trying.


    ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends.


    ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder. These types are socially incompetent for lack of trying, because they see little to no value in significant interaction with others. They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.


    ESFP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organizing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situation.


    ISFP/INTJ: Fi/Ni or Ni/Fi--Paranoid Personality Disorder. These types are your typical conspiracy theorists; they cling deeply to their personal values and can find a conspiracy to assault or attack those values everywhere they look. Chronically distrustful of others' intentions for no legitimate reason, these types are certain they are the only ones who really know "the truth." The inferior function, Te or Se, can sometimes lead to an unconscious desire to attract the attention of or lead/organize others in efforts to expose the nefarious conspiracies they invariably see everywhere. If Te/Se were doing its job, these types would be able to look around them and observe empirical evidence that most of their theories are probably not reflected in reality, but as they rely almost entirely on internal validation, Ni will go to any lengths to justify Fi's emotion-based suspicions. (I mentioned Dale Gribble from King of the Hill in a previous article--he's a perfect example.) There's also this guy Victor on typologycentral who's such a perfect example of this it's absolutely ridiculous.


    ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority. If Fi/Si were doing its job, these types would recognize that what they're looking for cannot be found outside themselves--they must learn to sometimes live for themselves and only themselves, and forget about external results for a moment.


    INFP/ISTJ: Fi/Si or Si/Fi--Avoidant Personality Disorder. Often scarred by some intensely negative past experience with opening up too many of their private emotions, this type compulsively avoids social situations and interaction with others. They are fiercely sensitive and may exaggerate or misconstrue perceived negative emotional intent in the words or actions of others. They will sometimes project their negative feelings onto others (Fi), as Si tells them that if I were to behave this way, I would have to be very upset, so anyone who behaves that way must also be. These types often have a chronic problem with trusting the intentions or motivations of others, refusing to share private information with even their closest friends and family. They are so deeply sensitive that they refuse to risk being hurt by attempting deep connections with others--you'll see this a lot in ISTJs with Asperger's. If Ne/Te were doing its job, these types would maintain a heathy grip on the importance of letting go of the past and trying something new in the name of accomplishing a greater goal, but some of these remain total recluses for most (if not all) of their lives.

    I guess that about covers it for today. If anyone wants to share their experiences with any of these or suggest a different personality disorder to associate with any group, knock yourselves out.

    Until next time,
    SW


    I also found this, which was more insightful on a Fi/Si loop in case anyone was interested:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...i-si-loop.html
    Default Dissecting the INFP Fi-Si Loop

    Ah, the Fi loop� Many an INFP�s undoing. It allows us to hold onto unhealthy, damaging ideas and emotions long after they have reached their expiration date and have lost their nutritive value. After going through one recently, I did my best to pick it apart and analyze it. Any thoughts, insight, or observations are welcome.

    First, what is the Fi-Si loop? With me, it gets invoked when something happens that causes the world to become morally or emotionally inconsistent. It creates a dissonance that I am compelled to explore. After my Fi based views of the world fail to create understanding, I retreat into Si mode and analyze the situation and relive my old emotions in the hopes of uncovering something new. Those Si-based emotions and memories then get fed into Fi, and the Fi-Si loop is born.

    External Input -> Fi -> Si -> Fi -> Si.... etc etc.

    What are additional components of the Fi-Si loop?
    First: emotion. The more powerful the emotion, the more powerful the loop. Without the emotion, why even bother?

    Second: some sort of deficiency. Either I am missing key information, or my internal model is outdated.

    The problems of the Fi-Si loop:
    Problem number 1 with the Fi-Si loop is that it requires less energy to enter and maintain the loop than it does to break it. This isn't readily apparent to others, but this is why INFPs can get stuck in these loops for 10 years at a time.

    Problem number 2 is that each iteration of the loop causes a slight corruption of information. Each recollection of emotion is based on whatever Fi generated, and that emotion becomes the stimulus for the new Fi loop. Can you see how this could cause an INFP to become more and more divorced from reality over time?

    So how does one fix it?

    Ultimately, I believe the Fi-Si loop is a lowest-possible-energy-expenditure attempt to heal a wounded dominate function. In English, that means my moral or emotional views of the world have been betrayed, and I can't rest easy until I can understand it again. I can handle all sorts of emotions, as long as I have understanding. That's how I cauterize the wound.

    So to get out of it, I have to expend energy. Damn.

    One solution is Deus-Ex-Ne. That is, Ne swoops in at the last minute, and in a sudden flash with a choir of angels singing, comes up with a new way of looking at things, which leads to new potential answers. Aha! Epiphany! There is my answer!

    Sadly, that rarely happens.

    The harder solution is chipping away at the loop with things like 'getting out there', 'doing stuff�, and 'researching information'. That�s Te, and it�s not very fun compared to the Fi-Si loop. It's slow and laborious for me. However, my most recent Fi-Si loop was cured when I stumbled upon a piece of information that allowed everything else to click into place. With that understanding, I no longer saw any point in investing emotional energy into the situation (Fi making a judgment call), and I was able to break free.

    Barring that sudden flash of information, it's chipping away at the Fi-Si loop rut until I am finally able to get out of the track and break free. In some areas of my life, I�m still working on that.
    Last edited by IndyGhost; 01-03-2011 at 01:05 AM.
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    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Would this, perhaps, give one a view of the world that made everything seem scary and fucked up and doomed because people have their priorities all wrong? Not in a religious sense, or "oh the end of time is coming"...nothing like that...just a really warped mindset that the world is a frightening, dangerous place to the point of things like panic and agoraphobia, and linkiing it to corruption in collective values?

    How about seeing buildings as monstrous symbols of a greed culture?
    i don't know if these are feelings and thoughts of strictly someone in an Fi/Ni loop... but it sounds about right and if that's how you feel i'd say it's a great possibility you're caught in a Fi/Ni loop based on my own experiences.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    i don't know if these are feelings and thoughts of strictly someone in an Fi/Ni loop... but it sounds about right and if that's how you feel i'd say it's a great possibility you're caught in a Fi/Ni loop based on my own experiences.
    These are things I experienced when I was younger, not at the present moment.

    I remember one time I returned from CA to Vegas in the middle of the night (at the time that I lived there) and the casinos just looked like monsters to me...not literally, of course, but I felt like they emanated something "evil" or dark...and I think to me it symbolized the gambling addiction/homelessness/suicide etc. that goes on there in droves. But my consciousness summed all that up into the physical symbol of the casinos themselves. I was totally sober.

    I also have had panic/anxiety for years and at one point suffered from agoraphobia. I went through a phase where I was just horrified with society...I mean beyond the normal dismissal I feel, I guess this was sometime between 2001 - 2005 ... just an exaggerated sense of horror, the feeling like some unspecified bad thing was going to happen, and I just couldn't deal with what I was seeing on television. I had to stop watching the news for several years. I mostly stopped watching other television, too, except for movies and Adult Swim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    These are things I experienced when I was younger, not at the present moment.

    I remember one time I returned from CA to Vegas in the middle of the night (at the time that I lived there) and the casinos just looked like monsters to me...not literally, of course, but I felt like they emanated something "evil" or dark...and I think to me it symbolized the gambling addiction/homelessness/suicide etc. that goes on there in droves. But my consciousness summed all that up into the physical symbol of the casinos themselves. I was totally sober.

    I also have had panic/anxiety for years and at one point suffered from agoraphobia. I went through a phase where I was just horrified with society...I mean beyond the normal dismissal I feel, I guess this was sometime between 2001 - 2005 ... just an exaggerated sense of horror, the feeling like some unspecified bad thing was going to happen, and I just couldn't deal with what I was seeing on television. I had to stop watching the news for several years. I mostly stopped watching other television, too, except for movies and Adult Swim.
    i can relate, here. as a child, i experienced the same thing... i was always sort of closed off in this bubble. and so as a child, i was experiencing this loop pattern. i paid little to no attention to Se sensations. and so, for an ISFP child... i was quite a scared little bugger.

    i also had similar problems with the news and went through a phase where i refused to watch it. everything going on in the world freaked me out.



    a lot of this coming up might explain why you are having such a hard time figuring out your type. you could well consider INTJ or ISFP if you're in an Ni/Fi loop. however, you seem more INTJ-like from what i've been able to gather.
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    Thanks IndyAnnaJoan! That's a great compilation of the different types of loops.

    As for everyone else, thanks for sharing your experiences, insights and explanations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I don't know about this "loop" business, but shitty Ni typically looks like someone who sees a misguided personal significance in things. They may think there are patterns in the chaos where there aren't any. Even worse, they may be further convinced by their own perceptions in light of clear, objective evidence. Notice how conspiracy theorists often base their theories on symbols, thinking that these symbols hold some sort of universal, and perhaps malicious connotation.

    Exhibit A: YOU MINDLESS SLAVES!!
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This might be an example of a negative loop.

    This situation is all wrong (Ni) - I am being treated unfairly (Fi) - I think they are out to get me (Ni) - Poor me (Fi) - X terrible thing is going to happen (Ni) - None of it matters because this culture or society's values are screwed up anyway (Fi), etc.

    The key aspect of the scenario is the auxiliary function (say Te) isn't used as a filter in the middle. The person is flipping between two introverted functions without being aligned with the reality of the external world. They are in their own mind flipping between these two introverted perspectives.
    This is even worse when this "loop" is in the shadow (NTP/SFJ). Then, it's not even a matter of bypassing the auxiliary; you're completely in the lower ranks of consciousness.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Thanks IndyAnnaJoan! That's a great compilation of the different types of loops.

    As for everyone else, thanks for sharing your experiences, insights and explanations.
    no problem! glad you found it interesting and/or useful.

    i noticed you switched from I to E.
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    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This is even worse when this "loop" is in the shadow (NTP/SFJ). Then, it's not even a matter of bypassing the auxiliary; you're completely in the lower ranks of consciousness.
    And what exactly makes it worse?
    The Justice Fighter

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    no problem! glad you found it interesting and/or useful.

    i noticed you switched from I to E.
    I've been a small "e" since joining. There are a few other members with similar usernames, so maybe you're confusing me with one of these.

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