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  1. #41
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    First off, GO VICKY JO !!

    By the way: Vicky Jo is a life coach professionally certified in various domains, including the MBTI :rolli:

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    The first stereotype is the notion that J's are always on time, and P's are always late. IT'S NOT TRUE!
    I'm always late - and I mean always.

    Another myth is about Js being tidy and Ps being messy. Whoa again!
    I'm ready to bet I have the messiest flat in the whole building (a tower building with more than 10 floors and at least 4 flats on each floor).

    Then there's the added problem of people who try to figure out whether they are J or P based on these same criteria! Well, as the Mafiosos say, "fuhgettabouttit!"
    I always test as INFP - the only time I didn't was when the test was NOT based on the MBTI dichotomies.

    What's interesting is that my husband and I score equally on any questions of early-starting and pressure-prompted -- because we do both! Since the two of us possess the Chart-the-Course interaction style, we tend to put just enough energy into an event early on in the process to figure out what must be done to arrive at the goal point. But then we forget about the whole matter until we're "pressure-prompted" to actually set the wheels in motion for the event. Invariably, we cut the margin too finely, and quality of life can be rather questionable until the event has ended.
    That is EXACTLY me!! Give me an assignment due in two months, and I'll diligently think about it and prepare for it for the next 3 days. And then... I'll forget about it until 3 days before it is due.

    There are other stereotypes around J/P -- you probably know what they are. I've heard that "Js are determined and energetic while Ps are unmotivated wimps."
    I'm one of the less motivated people I've ever known.

    ***

    As for my opinion about the J/P dichotomy: it shouldn't exist, because it is totally unsupported by both theory and observation.

    The 4-letter codes are just that: codes. What they are NOT is acronyms. For example, INFP codes for DomFi+AuxNe:
    1- NF as the core
    2- P to determine which function is Extraverted, in this case the Perceiving one
    3- I to determine which function is the Dominant, in this case the Introverted one
    Thus DomNi+AuxNe. See any J/P in this? No. Because it's not there.

    Before anyone tells me that by rejecting the J/P dichotomy, I'm throwing the baby with the bathwater, let me say: all I'm rejecting is the TEST. I'm fine with the codes and with the 16 MBTI types. What I am not fine with is the TEST used to type people. Testing for things like Introversion vs Extraversion, or "Feeling" vs "Thinking", that's already iffy enough, since by definition everyone has BOTH sides of each set. But testing for P/J, that's downright ridiculous, since P/J is only a MARKER: it only serves to designate which sort the Extraverted function will be (a Perceiving one or a Judging one). I *guess* you could argue that it tests for Se/Ne vs Fe/Te, but what exactly are the common points between Se and Ne, and Fe and Te?? I'm definitely not Extraverted in the same way an INTJ is Extraverted, for example. So to be accurate, the P/J test would need to test for all 4 of the Extraverted functions, which it doesn't. Instead it tests for traits that are supposedly associated with each pair of functions. Let's see:

    Judging
    Systematic
    Planful
    Early Starting
    Scheduled
    Methodical

    How does this relate in any way to Fe ? Te, yes, I can see that. But Fe???

    Perceiving
    Casual
    Open-ended
    Prompted
    Spontaneous
    Emergent

    I might see a bit more of a relationship between those adjectives and both Se and Ne, but it's still pulling at straws, as far as I'm concerned. And more problematic: several of those traits can apply to Fe too...

    The P/J dichotomy simply isn't supported, neither by theory, nor by practical observation. Thus, it shouldn't exist. That's how real scientists work: when something isn't supported by theory and contradicts the observations, then it is discarded. It is high time the P/J dichotomy be discarded.

    IMO, of course.

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    But I'm a strong J, and my Te is abysmal compared to my Fe by every measure I know of. How do you explain that, Wandering?

  3. #43
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    First off, GO VICKY JO !!

    By the way: Vicky Jo is a life coach professionally certified in various domains, including the MBTI :rolli:
    Yeah and INFJ I may add. She has really helped me find my best fit type. I had no interest in justifying her credentials since some here reject Jung.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    As for my opinion about the J/P dichotomy: it shouldn't exist, because it is totally unsupported by both theory and observation.
    100% AGREED. I eventually dumped the test and MBTI and went straight to the source. One can determine best fit type by reading Jung's functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Before anyone tells me that by rejecting the J/P dichotomy, I'm throwing the baby with the bathwater, let me say: all I'm rejecting is the TEST. I'm fine with the codes and with the 16 MBTI types. What I am not fine with is the TEST used to type people. Testing for things like Introversion vs Extraversion, or "Feeling" vs "Thinking", that's already iffy enough, since by definition everyone has BOTH sides of each set. But testing for P/J, that's downright ridiculous, since P/J is only a MARKER: it only serves to designate which sort the Extraverted function will be (a Perceiving one or a Judging one).
    BING-O!!!

  4. #44
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    But I'm a strong J, and my Te is abysmal compared to my Fe by every measure I know of. How do you explain that, Wandering?
    Your Te may be low, but you are (in my eyes at least) quite clearly a strong Thinker (a Feeler with strong Thinking, is what I mean). So my guess is simply that you favour a Ti approach to life more than an Fe one when answering MBTI tests

  5. #45
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Your Te may be low, but you are (in my eyes at least) quite clearly a strong Thinker (a Feeler with strong Thinking, is what I mean). So my guess is simply that you favour a Ti approach to life more than an Fe one when answering MBTI tests
    Well now, if that's the case, why don't xxTP's typically test as J's?

    See what I mean?

  6. #46
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well now, if that's the case, why don't xxTP's typically test as J's?

    See what I mean?
    Not really

    xxTPs: ESTP, ISTP, ENTP, INTP. The Extraverts in there would strongly identify with their Extraverted Perceiving Dominant, while the Introverts would have a Perceiving function as both Auxiliary and Tertiary, and I've admitted that the traits used to test for P do vaguely relate to the Perceiving functions (more than J relates to Fe, at least).

  7. #47
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    I very much support the abolition of these dreadful stereotypes. I have many J characteristics (even though I am a P), which may be attributed to (1) Over-focus on dom. Ti, (2) Relatively well-developed Te, (3) My OCD.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
    Solitary/Idiosyncratic, 5w6 sp/sx
    RL(x)EI (RlxE|I|)- Inquisitive Dominant
    Reserved Idealist
    ILI-Ni/INTp

  8. #48
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Judging
    Systematic
    Planful
    Early Starting
    Scheduled
    Methodical

    Perceiving
    Casual
    Open-ended
    Prompted
    Spontaneous
    Emergent


    I don't understand the meaning of the two words I bolded.

  9. #49
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well now, if that's the case, why don't xxTP's typically test as J's?

    See what I mean?
    Maybe this will help. Much of type is knowing and understanding the jargon of the system. Anyone still thinking that Feeling types are about emotions should be ashamed of themselves and the fact that introverts are shy is silly.

    These are just a few examples from the humanmetrics.com test. I hate picking on this test, but it’s a prime example of flawed questions that can really throw off the average SP.
    You are almost never late for your appointments
    YES NO
    It is true, I am almost never late. Sensors in general have a better idea of time than intuitives. However, this is a J/P question.

    You are more interested in a general idea than in the details of its realization
    YES NO
    I would think that the average INJ would answer this no, but this is not a J/P question, it’s a S/N question.


    It is in your nature to assume responsibility
    YES NO
    Again, I would answer this yes, but the results would be J. ISTPs are highly responsible people, which is why many descriptions show that they have a disdain for general stereotypes of SPs, therefore mistype.


    You believe the best decision is one that can be easily changed
    YES NO
    Totally disagree and even ESPs do not like change for it’s own sake. That's an ENP thing. But we know this is a J/P question.

    You prefer to act immediately rather than speculate
    about various options
    YES NO
    Well of course I do. All SPs like to act immediately. Where we differ from NJs is they are seeking closure and we are seeking expediency. I would answer this question as yes also, but I know it would skew my results.

  10. #50
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Maybe this will help. Much of type is knowing and understanding the jargon of the system. Anyone still thinking that Feeling types are about emotions should be ashamed of themselves and the fact that introverts are shy is silly.

    These are just a few examples from the humanmetrics.com test. I hate picking on this test, but it's a prime example of flawed questions that can really throw off the average SP.
    So... you're saying that you would test as J if you answered the questions without awareness of what they were intended to measure? So in other words, it probably wouldn't throw off an INTP, but it would potentially throw off an ISTP? I admit, I probably wasn't aware of that due to the dearth of S's on this board. Hmm...

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