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  1. #31
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Blue Wing, we seem to prescribe to similar studies, Lenore Thomson and Linda V. Berens. I agree with your thoughts, however, ISTP also has a "chart the course" interaction style. For that reason, I think the type resonates more with IJs than IPs in general. I do agree that perceiving types prefer experiential and hands on learning, which in simple terms is body based. I learn better from hands on experience as opposed to reading. I am comfortable with theory, but like all SPs, it must be applicable. I understand INTJs feel the same way.
    Perhaps the common factor here is Introverted Intuition which is the ISTP's tertiary function?

    INTJs and ISTPs have an intense need to apply theories for different reasons.

    INTJs because their judgment is extroverted and ISTPs mostly due to the Se. Albeit the tertiary Ni is also a factor. Ni demands that its visions be made a reality and Fe, being the inferior function tends not to have a voice of its own, so it just cheers the Ni on. But again ISTPs need practical applications because of their Se, which is the hallmark of 'SPness'.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Blue Wing, I have attempted to respond to your response on a number of occasions, however my post continues to get cut off.

  3. #33
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Perhaps the common factor here is Introverted Intuition which is the ISTP's tertiary function?
    I see why you would believe this, however Ni is almost non-existent for ISTP at the teritary level. It would make for something totally different than being in the dominant function. I attempted to locate a good description, however MBTI seems to still be lacking on providing good information when it comes to teritary. I attempted to paste an example from Lenore Thomson's Wiki site, but the description was bit over the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    INTJs and ISTPs have an intense need to apply theories for different reasons.

    INTJs because their judgment is extroverted and ISTPs mostly due to the Se. Albeit the tertiary Ni is also a factor. Ni demands that its visions be made a reality and Fe, being the inferior function tends not to have a voice of its own, so it just cheers the Ni on. But again ISTPs need practical applications because of their Se, which is the hallmark of 'SPness'.
    Your example for why INTJ has a need seems to be lacking. Again, I attempted to locate a good description of how Te works as an auxiliary function, however Lenore Thomson does not even offer one, which is surprising since she is an INTJ. Nevertheless, Linda V. Berens and Dario Nardi gives some good insight as to why ISTP closely resembles INTJ (and to some extent INTP):
    ISTPs have a Chart-the-Course Interaction Style, which goes with a desire to enter a situation with some sort of course of action in mind. It doesn’t have to be a detailed plan and ISTPs often seem planful as they analyze a situation in anticipation of what is likely to happen. ISTPs and INTJs share this Interaction Style and so would look alike in that way.

    The Chart-the-Course style often seems like the Strategic intelligence that is an important aspect of the Rational temperament pattern and ISTPs often relate to the description of the Rational temperament over the Artisan temperament. This is especially true when the Artisan description focuses too much on freedom and spontaneity.
    There are some tell-tale differences at the temperament level:
    Differentiating Artisan versus Rational is key. Artisan desire for skillful performance often leads ISTPs to identify with the Rational’s core need for competence. In presenting the two temperaments, it helps to contrast the difference between skillful performance as a value and competence as a core need. For the Artisan skill often comes from the drive to action and they hate being clumsy or awkward. They get involved in an activity, get caught up in the pure joy of doing, and thus become skilled. Rationals need to feel competent and often want a measure of competence before they even do something. To practice or “do” means failure and that often can strike at the core need.
    Another difference would be in how the two communicate. I was recently accused of not communicating, on this forum, like a SP, instead sounding more intuitive:
    It helps to listen for the concrete language of the ISTP, which often creates a picture in the listener’s mind. Such language is likely to be full of specific examples and stories. INTP and INTJ language tends to reference abstract concepts with a focus on precision. ISTPs often get at the essence of something rather succinctly, whereas, INTPs and INTJ go into more depth.
    Since ITPs share the same dominant function, ISTPs think more like INTPs, than INTJs. ISTPs analyze; INTJs conceptualize:
    ISTPs and INTPs have the same Leading Role process (dominant) of introverted Thinking and are likely to approach situations with an analytical perspective and like to know the principles of how things work. The difference shows up in their Supporting Role processes (auxiliary). An INTP described his preferred work style as exploring problems and sub-problems (Ne), while his ISTP colleague described a tactical trouble shooting approach with a focus on getting the task done (Se).
    I don't know, it's too close to call whether I am INTJ or ISTP, but still leaning toward ISTP. Berens/Nardi does provide a brief example of the Ni for ISTP:
    Also, ISTP’s frequently engage their Relief Role process (tertiary) of introverted iNtuiting and enjoy looking at whole systems and patterns and getting a sense of what will happen in the future.
    However, without further understanding I am unsure how that role plays out.

  4. #34
    Senior Member girlnamedbless's Avatar
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    Well said. The main difference I've noticed is that Ps are more open to trying out new things, while Js are more decided and tend to be more stubborn.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    whoa! Did you say stubborn? i know percieving types who are way more stubborn than "J"'s (I do consider myself extremely stubborn). In fact, introverted judgement (a preferred process for all percieving types) is a form of stubbornness if there ever was any.

  6. #36
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    You base your response on how the dichotomies should work in theory, not on how they apply to real life situations.
    I don't think he's done that at all. PT has simply pointed out that MBTI outlines 5 determining factors in its definition of "J", and that things like punctuality and neatness are indicative of one being J.

    One is a J or a P regardless of how neat or messy one is, but as these are traits with a tendency to be indicative of whether one is in fact a J or a P, they cannot said to be completely useless in determining type.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Yes, but the author is pointing out that messiness-or cleanliness or in general organized-ness (by the way, my ESFJ ex is extremely disorganized, she just could get away with it because she still knew exactly where all her stuff was)
    it's not a USEFULL indicator, because it's not accurate. The only reason people overuse this one is because it's easy, like say, claiming that "all ___types wear hawiian shirts." Of course, actually figuring out peoples types is not that easy.

  8. #38
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    What are you saying differently than her point? The only tell-tale difference is that J's like structure and P's like open end. However, I would not even go that far because ISTPs in general like working in structured environments and needing order. They just want to have room to maneuver within the structure. As for your list, I resonate with all your J descripton, except being all that methodical. In fact, anyone who prefers Chart the Course or In Charge interaction styles would resonate with your list for Js, including both STP types.
    What you have you do not need.

  9. #39
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    the thing is "?", if you reject generalisations, then you reject MBTI. I can accept contradictions within MBTI and use basic common sense, ie not every J will be 100% J at everything they do, T's have feelings, F's can think, I's can have friends etc. - but once you dispute the general framework, you discredit the concept of MBTI. I mean, you call yourself ISTP, but if you reject the conventional descriptions of the functions, then to what extent are you an ISTP? Wouldn't you be better off not typing yourself if you want to reject generalisations?
    I agree. The OP made me feel the exact same way.

  10. #40
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    So what does that mean, bearing in mind that you then went on to question even this vague description?

    MBTI tests ask about behaviour. Most literature on the J/P axis, just like literature on the E/I and T/F axes, describes behaviour as well as motivations. So I don't know why the author of this article thinks she is qualified to re-write type theory and present it as unquestionable fact, especially when her descriptions are so vague as to be of little or no help.
    Not to point you out specifcally Morto, but to the entire forum, do any of you actually read up on this subject or do you take bits and pieces and form opinions? I would really like for someone to point out in her book Gifts Differing that Myers-Briggs ever alludes to cleanliness and tidiness is determined by the J/P factor.

    The theme of her theory is covered in the first sentence of the chapter, "The judging types believe that life should be willed and decided, while the perceptive types regard life as something to be experienced and understood. Thus, judging types will like to settle things or at least to have things settled, whereas perceptive types prefer to keep their plans and opinions as open as possible so that no valuable experience or enlightenment will be missed." (pg.69) So she is not rewriting it as you put it. If anything, anyone that claims she said Js are clean and Ps are messy are rewriting. Even many descriptions claim that INFJs can be consistently messy. Read folks!

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