Dear Fe User,

[Draconic]

Yesterday I had lunch with two older women ages 70 and 80. One was an assertive ESFJ and the other an INFJ. It was an interesting perspective to see two fundamentally different manifestations of Fe. I've been thinking more and more that the abstract concept of externalized value judgments and externalized subjective impressions of reality that are Fe can be applied into more than one type of system. I suspect there are multiple, fundamentally different versions of each function.

There is a type of Fe we correlate with the 'fake politician'. The person who knows exactly what to say to win favor regardless of the inner feelings about whomever they are speaking with is demonstrating some type of Fe. However, I don't think that everyone categorized as Fe has this capacity. It is a specific manifestation of that abstract concept.

There is also a maternal type of Fe that is genuinely invested in those they interact with, but takes on a guiding role to keep people behaving within the accepted norms. It is authentic and not fake at all like the politician, but it is focused on the assumption that we are all supposed to behave this way or that. It can be either dominant like someone taking on role of mother/father or as a nervously concerned friend.

There is also a type of Fe that is like a puppy dog that is very externally influenced, completely authentic, but not as systematic and planning as the above mentioned types. It can change with the external environment, but is the exact opposite of 'fake'.

The type I see in various INFJs is a little different still. It has a more abstract nature and is something like the example of the dog, but imagine it to be a ghost observing all the people and systems feelings all the ups and downs at once from a distance.

I suspect Fi, Ti, and Te and the perceiving functions may have the capacity to have fundamentally different versions of each. It can't be one thing because there is too much contrast in behavior.

That's interesting. I'd say I have a combination of all three depending on the situation, although I exude mainly the maternal type cause of my mentality at times, and it's probably cause of my introverted sensing. Se I would say could contribute the most to the puppy dog side, Si to maternal, Ni to the fake politician or ghost thing. Of course every single function that a person has contributes to how Fe intertwines with their personality but I would assume the dominant and auxiliary positions.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

That's interesting. I'd say I have a combination of all three depending on the situation, although I exude mainly the maternal type cause of my mentality at times, and it's probably cause of my introverted sensing. Se I would say could contribute the most to the puppy dog side, Si to maternal, Ni to the fake politician or ghost thing. Of course every single function that a person has contributes to how Fe intertwines with their personality but I would assume the dominant and auxiliary positions.

I'm not 100% certain of my type (and I prefer it that way), but the only way I relate to Fe is as the ghost puppy I described.

 

[Draconic]

I'm not 100% certain of my type (and I prefer it that way), but the only way I relate to Fe is as the ghost puppy I described.

That's cool. The more mystery the better
As for me all things for now point towards ISFJ but I'm flexible and I believe things can change.

 

[misfortuneteller]

all the Fe doms/auxs that i know use Fe as logic and some even consider it logic. they will get highly offended if i refer to them as being irrational practically the NFJs who tend to think they are a cut above the typical SFJs for some reason. it might be because they tend to be more intellectual and they might lose face if i refer to them as such. all the Fi doms/auxs that i know (including myself) are aware that they are being irrational on the otherhand. we just don't give a crap about it. i like their honesty about it and they in favour appreciate my honesty about it.

 

[Mr Troll]

It gives me energy moves me away from apathy etc. I can get bit saturated of when I get too much of it.
If we apply socionics then I would say ESFPs use it too and it is used in wrong way IMO.

 

[Tilt]

all the Fe doms/auxs that i know use Fe as logic and some even consider it logic. they will get highly offended if i refer to them as being irrational practically the NFJs who tend to think they are a cut above the typical SFJs for some reason. it might be because they tend to be more intellectual and they might lose face if i refer to them as such. all the Fi doms/auxs that i know (including myself) are aware that they are being irrational on the otherhand. we just don't give a crap about it. i like their honesty about it and they in favour appreciate my honesty about it.

Almost everyone is irrational if you know them long enough... That's why I hate people just as much as I love them.

Fe is a specific type of logic.... More social/interpersonal logic rather than impersonal logic such as Ti. The premises are usually based on social rules/protocols... Very cause and effect. If one does not value those things, then it is going to be considered invalid.

I think the thing that seems to irritate Ji is that it can be so context-based that it feels like they are constantly going through hoops... Ergo, making it irrational in their eyes.

 

[Poki]

Almost everyone is irrational if you know them long enough... That's why I hate people just as much as I love them.

Fe is a specific type of logic.... More social/interpersonal logic rather than inpersonal logic such as Ti. The premises are usually based on social rules/protocols... Very cause and effect. If one does not value those things, then it is going to be considered invalid.

I think the thing that seems to irritate Ji is that it can be so context-based that it feels like they are constantly going through hoops... Ergo, making it irrational in their eyes.

Its much easier dealing with people that KNOW they are irrational then those who think otherwise.


We have the quote about a wise man knowing he knows nothing, I like the serenity prayer because it can be expanded so much beyond change. Its about knowledge. If you are not religious remove "God grant me" and just say "I will try my best to figure out"

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Virgo1987]

Yeah, healthy Fe is great. I mostly see it in middle-aged and older adults though, not usually in my age group. I'm 19 btw and just finished my first year of college.

I don't mean to hate on Fe, it just pisses me off how people who claim to be warm and caring are so quick to gang up on people, sometimes for no reason. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this in online groups especially. People would get tired of shit, so they'd leave, and there would always be hundreds of comments (mostly from Fe-users) about how they're pathetic, an attention seeker, etc. That's what gets to me, when they decide it's okay to be rude because other people are doing it.

Understood.

One thing I've learned from Fe users is that it's always about how they're feeling. If anyone were to say something about how they themselves are feeling, they're suddenly victims, attention seekers, pathetic. They might not even tell you this directly, they'll just allude to it or drop clues/word things in a different light. If you care enough you'll start trying to figure out where they're coming from or what these words or labels they threw at you mean... and then suddenly you're like oh I'm a victim, I'm pathetic. They really screw with your head...and they always seem so severely hurt or angered by everything and everyone. I'm only judging this from younger Fe's -- even into their 30s.

 

[misfortuneteller]

Fe is a specific type of logic....

it's not logic.

 

[Tilt]

it's not logic.

It's just as logical as Fi. The functions ARE JUST PREFERENCES AND TOOLS. Whether or not it is used efficiently and effectively depends on the end user.

Fe fits quite nicely into these definitions.
b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : relevance, propriety
c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable

It's just more concerned with the interpersonal/social realm. Whether you like it or not, each society/culture has several sets of rules based on cultural values and norms set within each group/subgroup. Fe users tend to base their reasoning on interpersonal dynamics while Fi reasoning is more intra personal... Neither is better or worse. I would say Fi is much more skilled at looking at specific situations/exceptions but that does not make any more or less logical than Fe... They are basically two sides of the same coin.

I could just as easily say that your subjective experience (Fi) is invalid/illogical because Je would deem it irrelevant to the overall structure/picture. However, that isn't the case because there usually is some sort of rhyme and reason to the intricate value sets of FPs whether or not one csn fully understand the Fi user.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Yeah, healthy Fe is great. I mostly see it in middle-aged and older adults though, not usually in my age group. I'm 19 btw and just finished my first year of college.

I don't mean to hate on Fe, it just pisses me off how people who claim to be warm and caring are so quick to gang up on people, sometimes for no reason. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this in online groups especially. People would get tired of shit, so they'd leave, and there would always be hundreds of comments (mostly from Fe-users) about how they're pathetic, an attention seeker, etc. That's what gets to me, when they decide it's okay to be rude because other people are doing it.

Ganging up is a horrible behavior. There could be some correlation with Fe since that function has some connection to group behaviors. I have seen it done on T-dom sites, and would venture to say that negative gossip happens in larger numbers than could always be contributed to Fe.

During high school, I went to a small, farm-based, christian school, and there was one girl there that everyone in the entire school had 'permission' to mistreat. She was the omega of the group, the wounded chicken everyone picked on. I was horrified by it. When she dropped her tray in the cafeteria the entire school stomped and roared as she ran out. There was a rumor she was demon-possessed. She ran out of the dorm saying she was going to commit suicide, and a girl yelled, 'yeah, well, really do it this time'. I cannot remember any person being kind to her. While I've made mistakes in my life (including being unfair to a girl while in fourth grade), during these years I did the right thing. I was her friend and would listen to her. One time in choir she turned around and said loudly to me 'you spit on me', there was silence, and I said "I'm sorry". She turned around and looked so happy. It broke my heart because I knew she was so happy because I was kind to her in front of everybody. I felt like maybe she trusted me enough to know I wouldn't snark back at her.

My brother was bullied during his school years, and I have rage about ganging up on people. It's one of my triggers that can make me go crazy. I'll attack people trying to do that. When I've pushed back online it has not gone well. In some of these type berating discussions I feel that this is exactly what is happening. Everyone is ganging up on a function (and certain individuals by default). I have felt the worst of it is Fi directed at Fe for this group bullying, so that is an ironic example of it. Sometimes it's Fi, sometimes it's Fe, but in either case it can bother me when the attacks are extremist, slandering, and mean-spirited. Your comment sounds genuine and you are addressing a serious issue that can have some connection to Fe, and I read that you are trying to make sense of it.

During my high school years, that ganging up behavior had to include some Fi people as well because it was basically an entire school of 100 people. I hope someone else besides me was nice to that girl at times, but I never saw it happen, and I certainly looked for it. Those years were intensely lonely for me because even when people were nice to me, I knew it was shallow and meaningless. I knew that every single person there had it in their heart to be horribly unkind. It makes no difference how it's directed when it is expressed so clearly.

 

[misfortuneteller]

It's just as logical as Fi.

Fi isn't logic either.

 

[misfortuneteller]

let's just clarify having good manners doesn't equate with logic.

 

[á´…eparted]

let's just clarify having good manners doesn't equate with logic.

Good manners has little to do with the functions, and to describe Fx functions that way does them disservice to what they actually are.

 

[misfortuneteller]

Good manners has little to do with the functions, and to describe Fx functions that way does them disservice to what they actually are.

so touchy...

 

[á´…eparted]

so touchy...

Who said people are touchy. You're the one making claims without backing things up.

You are basing your evaluation of the function the stereotype that Fx functions are just emotional and illogical, which is flat untrue. You're only thinking of hard formal logic (which incidentally all individuals on this planet can and do use regardless of type). The difference between F and T functions is mainly around analysis of subjective information and objective information. The former can absolutely be analyzed logically. A lot of it deals with social stuff, and you need to be logical to finesse that correctly.

 

[misfortuneteller]

as i said FJs don't like being seen as illogical.

 

[Tilt]

Fi isn't logic either.

let's just clarify having good manners doesn't equate with logic.

First of all, how would you describe your Fi?

Secondly, are you saying that both F types are incapable of logic or that the functions are illogical?

 

[á´…eparted]

as i said FJs don't like being seen as illogical.

No one likes to be seen as illogical.

You didn't demonstrate how I might be wrong. Unless you do so, your accusations are totally meaningless and incorrect.

 

[misfortuneteller]

are you saying that both F types are incapable of logic or that the functions are illogical?

i'm saying that Fe/Fi has nothing to do with logic.