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Dear Fe User,

Coriolis

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How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.
 

uumlau

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How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.

The tert/inf users don't realize they're doing it. Even with Fi overridden by Te, Fi informs the Te decisions.

One weird cognitive science fact: if you remove the emotional centers of the brain, one remains capable of making logical judgments, but incapable of making decisions.
 

Riva

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The tert/inf users don't realize they're doing it. Even with Fi overridden by Te, Fi informs the Te decisions.

One weird cognitive science fact: if you remove the emotional centers of the brain, one remains capable of making logical judgments, but incapable of making decisions.

Ooooo thanks for sharing that (assuming it is correct of course). The first thing that came to my mind was intps ;).

How about for Fi/Fe inferiors?
 

Coriolis

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You do know this is a B&W blanket statement, right?
Everyone knows that all generalizations are false.


Ooooo thanks for sharing that (assuming it is correct of course). The first thing that came to my mind was intps ;).

How about for Fi/Fe inferiors?
My grad school advisor was INTP and had a very hard time finalizing decisions. I soon figured out how to force his hand when one was needed. We made a very good team.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.

The lists, while seemingly accurate, don't relay the actual processes of the feeling functions in the psyche. What must be understood is the general dynamics of the judging functions themselves, and then one can specifically derive possible qualities some people may assume from that function. Some concepts of Socionics are in this post, if you aren't particularly interested in the general mechanisms, the answer to your question "How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do?" is in the last paragraph.

(Space-consuming lead-up explanation)


To answer your question specifically, then, INTJ's conscious concerns of defining the self often include whether or not others respect them and their ideas intellectually* along with objective measurements such as achievements and accomplishments (Auxiliary/Creative Te), then, they have an unconscious overtone, which is more or less nagging at the back of the INTJ's thoughts, including such definitions of self such as whether or not they are truly living up to their internal ideal, their sense of self, whether or not they are being truthful to what they believe (ethically, culturally), and whether or not they are living up to their specific values (Tertiary/Mobilizing Fi).

Therefore, for the INTJ,

Primary, Surface Concerns: Does my thinking align with that of the scientific community/academia or with common/accepted knowledge?
Secondary, Deep Concerns: Am I really living up to who I think I am, am I on the right path, is this who I am?

*More or less whether or not you adhere to common systems of thought imposed by society (and by society, I mean academia, mainstream science, etc.)
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I'll respond to your post more in detail later but for now, I think it might be worth reposting something that I had earlier which summarized things. I started this thread when I was frustrated with a particular Fe person - who is a wonderful person really - but at that particular point, something she had done hit a nerve. I can't even remember what it was. Anyway, it was kind of a discovery process for me because I don't think I really understood Fe vs. Fi at the time. There was a lot of good dialogue and here is what I learned through the thread.
I thought that might be the case, but didn't feel like hashing through the entire thread. Eh, I needed to kill some time mostly. But thanks for reading my post nonetheless. I am glad the thread was educational for you. Sounds like your friend may have had some conformity issues, though.

A couple of notes:
- Fi personal values are abstract to Fe types - they want Fi types to communicate their values in a more concrete way
I guess this is parallel to the Ti/Te miscommunications thing.

- Fe types are frustrated with what they perceive as inflexibility of the Fi types to consider the perspectives of others
This does annoy me. At times, it's even devalidating and hurtful.

- Fi types feel threatened by Fe social dynamics (a game they don't want to play)
Can xxTPs fall under this category too? I, too, was once sooper-pissy about playing "the game" and being "nice". I felt like a sell-out when I realized that basically I had to do this to get by! But I have found that it suits my purposes once I got past the initial revulsion.

I thought you had a decent summary of the Fe process. A couple of comments:
Fe users
- are ruled by objective and more broadly accepted values
AKA, the social code. It's more like I pay respects to this rather than internalize those values (which I guess would be using an Fi-like process)

- express emotion with intentionality and forethought for optimal effect
That's EXACTLY right, and why it gets called manipulative. It's an interpersonal calculation.

- have a harder time confronting others; are more diplomatic
- are more practical; willing to make compromises
Here's something no one gets! I'm an Fe-user. I think you know my enneagram type and tritype--I kept getting told by the ignorant I couldn't be 8-fixed or triple reactive because I know how to make compromises and I'm not confrontational. I don't pick fights on message boards and I don't particularly like to. Knowing I'm Fe, though, helps me to understand and accept why that is.

It's exactly right.

Fi users
- have an easier time confronting others; are more brash
Oh I know non-confrontational xxFPs. I guess it comes from self-referencing more than maintaining others' feelings though, so that particular calculation is less in place.

- focus on being true to who they are
Again, though, I wonder if TPs are more like this? When 4-fixed anyway. I have extreme reactions to phoniness in myself or having to be something I'm not. Damn near quit my job because they forced me to tie my hair back, dye it dark, and wear make-up. That was NOT in the job description. The only reason I complied at all is because...well, I'm broke. But GRRR....!
 

Coriolis

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The IxTp's (IxTJ's) are deeply concerned with how they perceive others, and generally base their interpersonal relations on whether or not they like or dislike others (Fi Mobilizing), while being mostly unconcerned (a more apt term would be ignorant or neglecting) with whether or not others actually like them or dislike them (Fe Vulnerable).
Where are T (Te) considerations in IxTJ interpersonal relations? I doubt it all comes down to Fi "liking".

Therefore, for the INTJ,

Primary, Surface Concerns: Does my thinking align with that of the scientific community/academia or with common/accepted knowledge?
Secondary, Deep Concerns: Am I really living up to who I think I am, am I on the right path, is this who I am?
I would think INTJ's primary concern would be: does my thinking lead to the desired results? Is it effective? Aligning with some sort of academic standards or common knowledge seems more like Ti/Fe, or even Ti/Fe/Si.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Where are T (Te) considerations in IxTJ interpersonal relations? I doubt it all comes down to Fi "liking".


I would think INTJ's primary concern would be: does my thinking lead to the desired results? Is it effective? Aligning with some sort of academic standards or common knowledge seems more like Ti/Fe, or even Ti/Fe/Si.

Feeling is the reigning function in defining interpersonal relations, but the Thinking Functions do aid some as well; Extroverted Thinkers in interpersonal relationships will generally form relations with people who intellectually respect them (in similarity with Extroverted Feeling's 'Do they like me?'). This description here, however, deals only with the Feeling function's role in interpersonal relations, as the thread was concerning the Feeling functions.

That's another directive of Te, what I was specifically talking about was defining the self through Judging functions, Extroverted Thinking allows the individual to define themselves on their accomplishments and what they have done. The concerns seen here are reflections on how you view people and how people view you, and therefore does not concern the other directives such as "does my thinking lead to the desired results?", but they do co-exist.

Aligning with academic standards and common knowledge is the basis of Extroverted Thinking, the assimilation of technical information from society. Extroverted Thinkers, thus, accept information given by credible sources of knowledge, (and probably rejecting information given by not-so-credible sources) while Introverted Thinkers choose to make logical sense of all sources of knowledge (credible or not-credible), not accepting anything until everything is personally reasoned out.*

These concerns, again, are based only off on how others perceive you and vice versa.

Ti/Fe - Not inclined to care what others think of them intellectually, inclined to care what others think of them socially.
Te/Fi - Inclined to care what others think of them intellectually, not inclined to care what others think of them socially.

*An Extroverted Thinker, then, will generally learn about a branch of knowledge and will readily accept the knowledge taught to them by professors or textbooks, trusting in their credibility, while Introverted Thinkers must be able to personally reason out every inch of knowledge provided by professors or textbooks before trusting it.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Everyone knows that all generalizations are false.

I'm thinking it's more accurate to say "Te (always already) knows that all generalizations are false (and is okay with that)"; whilst Ti might logically know 'all generalizations are false', but feel compelled nonetheless to immediately explain why a generalization feels false the moment that generalization is released into the world, and it causes a bit of anxiety to not be able to do that. Just like it causes Fi anxiety to not be able to stop everything and sort out some tiny detail that seems (to Fe) like it would just sort itself out if Fi would let things move forward.

It isn't that Je doesn't care about 'the truth' or the best conclusion- but Je just takes for granted that starting points are necessarily going to be wrong. Granted, it is definitely worthwhile to put effort into making the starting point as correct as possible (and Pi and Ji are going to have seriously, seriously different opinions about what's reasonable in this regard), but I think that introverted perception always already knows that the starting point is not going to be correct. You can't just decide "truth" or "the best way to do something"- you need to put forth the proposition and then see if it keeps being true/pay attention to how to tweak it from there. Whereas introverted judging wants to prioritize a priori logic, and feels anxious (and oppressed) by letting anything go forward that might not be 100% OMG correct.

And what I find interesting is that Je dom/aux- in spite of using Pi over Ji- is still susceptible to the anxiety of whatever Ji is in tert/inf position. For example, it's hard for me to read that list highlander reposted without finding it offensive. (Lol?) Because it's so wrong in spots. And I think it's key to learn that the kind of extraverted judging that we don't personally prefer isn't actually trying to oppress us or make us think/feel something that's 'clearly' flawed- it's just more capable of taking for granted that the starting point is going to be wrong, and that's okay because starting points are practically always going to be at least a little bit wrong. Ji tends to see the 'starting point' as a proposed 'end point' though, and feels pressure (that the Je'er isn't intending, and likely doesn't even realize they're causing) to 'go along' with something flawed (as if there's an expectation to continue to adhere to the flawed application).
 

Jaguar

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The problem with making B&W blanket statements that pigeon-hole people in an attempt to make us feel in control and our world view more comfortable & is both the essence & epitome of typology's kool-aid demise.

I can answer "True," "False," "Sometimes," or "Huh?" to items from both an Fe list and an Fi list. It's not a case of either/or for me. Never has been.
As for your comments, well, that's why SolitaryWalker called it, "Folk Typology."
 

Coriolis

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I'm thinking it's more accurate to say "Te (always already) knows that all generalizations are false (and is okay with that)"; whilst Ti might logically know 'all generalizations are false', but feel compelled nonetheless to immediately explain why a generalization feels false the moment that generalization is released into the world, and it causes a bit of anxiety to not be able to do that. Just like it causes Fi anxiety to not be able to stop everything and sort out some tiny detail that seems (to Fe) like it would just sort itself out if Fi would let things move forward.
Good grief - you took my comment seriously. My statement was (obviously) false, since it itself is a generalization. So the ultimate point is that some generalizations are true. Sort of like a double negative.
 

Coriolis

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Feeling is the reigning function in defining interpersonal relations, but the Thinking Functions do aid some as well; Extroverted Thinkers in interpersonal relationships will generally form relations with people who intellectually respect them (in similarity with Extroverted Feeling's 'Do they like me?'). This description here, however, deals only with the Feeling function's role in interpersonal relations, as the thread was concerning the Feeling functions.
Te people look less for intellectual respect than intellectual challenge and stimulation. Of course, the two often go hand in hand, but I think it is the stimulation that is the main appeal.

That's another directive of Te, what I was specifically talking about was defining the self through Judging functions, Extroverted Thinking allows the individual to define themselves on their accomplishments and what they have done. The concerns seen here are reflections on how you view people and how people view you, and therefore does not concern the other directives such as "does my thinking lead to the desired results?", but they do co-exist.

Aligning with academic standards and common knowledge is the basis of Extroverted Thinking, the assimilation of technical information from society. Extroverted Thinkers, thus, accept information given by credible sources of knowledge, (and probably rejecting information given by not-so-credible sources) while Introverted Thinkers choose to make logical sense of all sources of knowledge (credible or not-credible), not accepting anything until everything is personally reasoned out.*
The highlighted sounds more like Si in its focus on established information. Te generally doesn't care where the information comes from, as long as it works. Similarly, Te dom/aux will often form relationships for utility, because they and the other person can accomplish something together.

*An Extroverted Thinker, then, will generally learn about a branch of knowledge and will readily accept the knowledge taught to them by professors or textbooks, trusting in their credibility, while Introverted Thinkers must be able to personally reason out every inch of knowledge provided by professors or textbooks before trusting it.
Ti indeed will want to reason out everything and understand the whole of the "theory", but Te has to try it and see what it does. Neither is likely to accept presented knowledge without questioning it, each in his/her own way.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Good grief - you took my comment seriously. My statement was (obviously) false, since it itself is a generalization. So the ultimate point is that some generalizations are true. Sort of like a double negative.

Well I did pick up on a touch of sarcasm, or some kind of play on words- since the statement itself was a generalization- it seemed like it was sort of mocking the quick dismissal of generalizations (not in a sardonic/mean-spirited way, but nonetheless). My point was that- sarcasm notwithstanding- Te actually is able to take in generalizations and work with them without being agitated to distraction by what's wrong with them. eta: Te can take for granted that they're not 100% applicable without simultaneously feeling the strong urge to point out exactly what's wrong with them as they're being presented.

There's something funky that happens when Te words enter Ti ears, or when Fe words enter Fi ears- as evidenced by the creation of this thread, and many others like it. I'm just trying to find some way of putting it into words- so that I can better understand it myself, but also to find and explain some productive way to actually hear those Te (or Fe) words as they were intended instead of projecting a buttload of "You will be assimilated!!!" into it.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Te people look less for intellectual respect than intellectual challenge and stimulation. Of course, the two often go hand in hand, but I think it is the stimulation that is the main appeal.


The highlighted sounds more like Si in its focus on established information. Te generally doesn't care where the information comes from, as long as it works. Similarly, Te dom/aux will often form relationships for utility, because they and the other person can accomplish something together.


Ti indeed will want to reason out everything and understand the whole of the "theory", but Te has to try it and see what it does. Neither is likely to accept presented knowledge without questioning it, each in his/her own way.

The stimulation is the main appeal, but in an interpersonal sense, the former is one of the roles of Te.

The reason why Extroverted Thinking accepts information laid out by society is generally because society has already tested it. This is why a high majority of Extroverted Thinking dominants are Empiricists. If it has been proven to work, then it is credible and correct. With academia, Te users generally align themselves with studies and discoveries producing the most evidence and/or having the backing of pioneers in that field.

The Extroverted Thinkers approach the branches of knowledge in two specific ways, +Te and -Te (xSTJ's and xNTJ's), where the +Te valuers rigidly follow the exact structure laid out before them or learn the information exactly as it is laid out, and where the -Te valuers are less focused on following the exact structure, but understanding the baseline premise of the structure presented to them (Te) and using that as a springboard to weave their own interpretation or understanding of the information (+Ni). For the +Te Egos, the structures and frameworks are accepted exactly as they are and are followed accordingly, for the -Te Egos, the structures and frameworks are accepted as launching pads to a transcended level of understanding and view of the topic and/or world. (Plus/Minus aspects adopted from Socionics's Plus/Minus IM Elements)
 

Cygnus

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Te people look less for intellectual respect than intellectual challenge and stimulation. Of course, the two often go hand in hand, but I think it is the stimulation that is the main appeal.

Te generally doesn't care where the information comes from, as long as it works.

Reinin says they do. Te/Fi users are Objectivists/"Serious."
Socionics Dichotomies: R3t1

Sociotype.com said:
Inclined to believe there are 'objective truths' – the truth is not always relative. Therefore, they believe that there are two types of actions/perspectives: those which are subjective (connected with personal preferences and motivations) and those which are objective (only one 'correct' or 'best' way of doing something). Whether something is correct or not is judged by comparing it with what they see as 'objectively correct'. In disagreement, they first attempt to make sure that the other person understands the concepts and terms 'correctly'.
They are inclined to offer (or impose) what they see as the 'best' or 'correct' way of doing something ('it should be done like this'). If they think something is done incorrectly, they ask WHO did it that way. When speaking of optimums, they are inclined to do so objectively (the 'absolute' optimum)
 

violet_crown

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I sincerely hoped that this thread would be like "Dear White People", but for Fe users.

As in: "Dear Fe-users, your relative merits mean less than nothing to me. Please remove your dick from where you've flopped it on my forehead."

Or,

"Dear Fe users, your apparent inability for you to believe I am experiencing a feeling without externalizing it makes me doubt both your ability to make inferences and your capacity for object permanence."
 

Qlip

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Dear Fe user,

You're A-okay with me. Probably because I'm too self-absorbed to notice otherwise.

Qlip
 

Kullervo

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On the one hand, I admire Fe. Its focus on connecting, compassion, giving and being accommodating are a big part of what makes the world a good place to live. It "honors" the feeling of others, which is really wonderful and because of all of these remarkable qualities, it facilitates the building of trusting relationships in the way that perhaps no other function can replicate. Without it, I don't know if harmonious society would be possible.

At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.

Don't get me wrong. I am a huge Fe fan. As I first stated, I see all of the good that it does in the world. Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think. Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself. When I think something is right or it's wrong, it's my own opinion and not the opinion of others. With that perspective in particular, it is important to pick your battles.

Anyway, I guess what really bothers me is a deep disconnect on the values as to what is important. It is enough to understand this and to see the worth of both perspectives, I suppose for now.

Thank you very much and carry on.

I don't think that Fe is necessarily altruistic in nature. Fe users are just very conscious of the emotional atmosphere in their environment, and tend to absorb the feelings of people around them. This makes them vulnerable to a hive mentality if they don't have a strong sense of self. I feel quite strongly that there should not be a stereotype around moral systems a Fe/Fi user chooses to follow, and you will find out that the generalisations around Fe users' beliefs break down quickly in reality.

Taking the forum as an example, I would name [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=20944]Cygnus[/MENTION] as Fe doms who have an edge to them, and I am an IEI in Socionics so the jury is out on my MBTI. As people here are aware, I don't run around hugging strangers and crying about conflict on the other side of the world. Unfortunately the stereotypical Fe user seems to be a bubbly, gossiping girl who loves babies, Africa and shopping. This really only holds true for a select group of Fe users, who drive me nuts as well.

Enneatype is important to consider, as well as the cultural and social background of the person you are talking to.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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As in: "Dear Fe-users, your relative merits mean less than nothing to me. Please remove your dick from where you've flopped it on my forehead."

I don't trust ressentiment. Because I'm selfish. I'm certainly not sure what it's supposed to accomplish.
 
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