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Dear Fe User,

Redbone

Orisha
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,882
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ENFP
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9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I think the problem w/ Fe is when the person starts to expect things from others. This is a pointless endeavor because one can't control others' actions. Saying that, I still expect people to follow basic social conventions like introducing yourself or asking before sitting next to me (a stranger), not to talk loudly about your private life over the cellphone in a computer lab, if you say you are going to do something, do it or be straightforward about why you can't. Since I can't control what they do, I just let it be or don't engage them.

This I have seen and it's not pretty. Using Fe to plug into people so that an emotional need is fed or manipulating someone to get a desired behavior. Fe turned inward to feed self...ugh.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
I feel you..... it can be hard to combat those urges.......not a pretty thing indeed. Personal anecdote: I have an Fi dom friend and I ALWAYS want to steer her in the right direction but I know that it is not my place. She wants to go across the country to meet a guy in a band who she only met once and she has a boyfriend..... I compromised and made her promise me to go w/ someone. I am scared for her safety.... that's an example of my Fe being a bit domineering.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
"I don't give a damn about your feeling!"
"I don't give a damn about my feeling either, only yours. Doesn't that mean we're in love now?"

Neither of the sides in that exchange is characteristically Fe or Fi. Both teams could field a side in the competition to be that far gone. The only thing typology says of either side is if they are saying that same thing, then all other things being equal they will be saying it for different reasons.

It'd mean admitting there is abroad in the world a way of being that is fundamentally different from yours, and if you do what you naturally do then you're not doing what's needed to directly address that other way of being.

And if you do want to address that other way of being, you have to do something different, something alien. Or something only indirectly related to what you think is right.



Or not.
 

highlander

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Funny, I don't equate Fe with consensus but maybe I should think about that more.

I have thought about it some more and do not think consensus is the best word. This is how I see the comparison of the functions:

Fi
Whose feelings? - It cares about it's own feelings
What values? - It is about listening to your conscience; your own internal standards and ethics. The values it concerns itself with are private subjective core values. They are personal values
At what cost? - You are following your own value system regardless as to the consequence
Harmony with who? - It's about harmony with oneself

Fe
Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other people
Harmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly.

Finally, I think these are preferences and not some sort of binary divide. So people can demonstrate both but will have a preference for one over the other.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
I have thought about it some more and do not think consensus is the best word. This is how I see the comparison of the functions:

Fi
Whose feelings? - It cares about it's own feelings
What values? - It is about listing to your conscience; your own internal standards and ethics. The values it concerns itself with are private subjective core values. They are personal values
At what cost? - You are following your own value system regardless as to the consequence
Harmony with who? - It's about harmony with oneself

Fe
Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other people
Harmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly.

Finally, I think these are preferences and not some sort of binary divide. So people can demonstrate both but will have a preference for one over the other.
Pretty much all the Fi doms I am close to are all about harmony with others. themselves. The Fi users that I have noticed that have the "I will say and do whatever the hell I want" vibe are the XXTJs.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
OK, I see what you're saying. I think I would say this though: personal values and conscience (Fi) and shared values and consensus (Fe). Both can go horrifically wrong and both can go beautifully right. If the personal value is corrupt, how does it get corrected? If the shared value is corrupt, how does it get corrected?

If the personal value is corrupt, it gets corrected by gentle reflective feedback from others. This would be the use of "I" that your have found to be very self centric in the past. When the first person presents a corrupted personal value, the second goes "well, I would have done this/felt this/though this instead" The first person doesnt have to respond, but will take the lesson away and consider the other person's take on the situation. For Te doms/auxs often feedback has to be more pointed-"do you realize how this will affect those around you?" There is never a forced change of values as in "You should..." But instead "I would..." This is symmetric to how Ti engages in logic analysis and feedback.

If I respect people who are older than me who are Christians, for example, I would never dream of sharing my thoughts with them on religion like I would do with my close friends or on the Internet, because I know it would be needlessly hurtful.

However, I can see that Fi could be this way too, because they simply have the value of not hurting other people's feelings. SimWorld tried to tell me, in fact, that's what that was...that I was using Fi, and that my motive was "not to hurt people's feelings" vs. "socially correct behavior."

But I do know how to behave correctly, and I'm actually inclined to correct others if I think they're being a total boar. I have a sister who tests ENFP (but I think might actually be ESFP) and her selfish behavior at times makes me want to beat her up. I would never actually beat my sister up, but I sometimes am just staggered at how she will behave. Same with one of my roommates...who I think might be ESFP...she's really sweet, a good person with a good heart, but good lord she really does not think of others in these really weird, inconsiderate ways. It's really frustrating to have to deal with because she's so sweet, and yet is so self-absorbed. And I've really had to manage myself and think of ways to deal with it rather than confronting her head-on and saying what I want to say, because I don't want to hurt her or have bad blood between us, but still like "hey, good lord there's someone sleeping in this room, shut up!"

When young I would obnoxiously debate others on controversial topics. It was obnoxious as hell. At about 22, I cut this out as each personal has the right to believe what they choose to believe-an Fi value I hold dear, even if I dont agree with their position due to my own Fi values. Thus I dont disrupt a social interaction-not due to Fe, but due to Fi.

Fi and Fe may often result in the same behavioral pattern-for very different underlying motivations.
Fi and Fe may often result in drastically different behavioral patterns-for very different underlying motivations.
Fi and Fe may result in drastically different behavioral patterns-for very similar underlying motivations.

Because the underlying motives/worldview/perspectives can be so different, if you want to help others, it can be almost essential to appreciate the complexity of this mess. Sometimes the same solution will work, sometimes it will differ. A generic toolbox can be built but different people need different tools.

What I have seen in this forum, I have never seen IRL. For decades, I spoke with almost 100 new people every day. Zero communication gap. Zero. If there was this massive divide, I sure as heck would have seen it. I hired, trained, and mentored teams of people while also building B2B relationships every single day. In other words, I wore several different hats with comfort.

I dealt with human beings. I didn't deal with Fi and Fe people.

On friday I finished my first Step II consultation. It was with an ENFP I work with. She tested as an ENTJ but verified as an ENFP. She described having anxiety attacks and emotional breakdowns because of her interactions with her boss and coworkers-mostly ESTPs. She then described exactly what the Fi users describe here. I explained how Fe communication differs and why it will feel strange to her. I explained how exchange of social niceties isnt fake, but rather a way of constant maintenance of social interactions. I advised her, when upset, not to avoid and withdraw but to continue in the social exchange. She spoke of not understanding why they always dumped work on her and how they never seem to stop talking but never acting. I explained that Fe interactions will involve evoking change by interactions with people - like a people net that gets tweaked and tugged. We talked about how her approach can be quite complementary once she draws some initial boundaries regarding pushing work back upon others.

It was very rewarding to me, as everything I have been taught here just clicked into place and I could use what I understand to help another person become happier and help them understand that no person is wrong or right, but just different, then give them tools to help navigate those differences.

I suspect that for each MBTI type those tools will differ some-one size doesnt fit all.

It's a typical social gesture to say, "I know how you are feeling", when I suspect most people know deep down they don't. I think it actually means, "I've had similar, generalized negative feelings, and I don't want you to feel badly just like I didn't want to feel badly". This is way different from actually understanding the specific pain of a person.

The gut feeling is that I know what they are feeling. That inside of myself, I am feeling the pain that they feel or I have felt it in the past and can reload it into my current emotional set and relive that pain. So if I see them in pain-I am feeling a physiological attempt at replication of that pain. I would never say this to another person-but that is what is happening inside of me.

So it is generally the case that people aren't going to understand functions that aren't part of their primary four? Si shouldn't expect to understand what Se is, etc.? Does a function have to be experienced in order to be understood? I can see on one level that would definitely be the case. MBTI does create categories that allows groups to stake out territory like iNtuitives who cannot be understood by Sensors, or Thinkers whose reasoning is above Feelers, or Ti is more creative than Te, etc. Sorry to bring up the negative connotations, but they exist in all directions and I don't subscribe to them, but do notice the territorial boundaries they create with inner and outer circles.

These boundaries sadden me, but are very real. We can all learn about other functions on the outside and describe descriptions of those functions. However to be honest, to really understand a function, I suspect you would need to live in that function for awhile. To assume from outside of it that you understand it and and describe it the way a native user does-is horrifically presumptous. If one finds themselves arguing what a function does with a native user of that function, it's best to assume you are wrong.

With Fe users, time and time again on the forum and even in this thread they insist that there really is little difference and that we are all overanalyzing.

Instead I suggest we are using Te. Te allows us, even in the INFPs, to seek to categorize/systemize things. Te is okay with imperfect categorization, a system that may be clumsy at times but works, until we can modify it to make it better. We smooth the bumps with Fi to modify the system for the individual under study. To Fe these categorizations may seem artificial-as Fe seems to seek values/rules that everyone can agree on, so dividing people into clumps suddenly throws the more universal Fe rules into jeopardy.

I suppose it isn't that different from real life, it just has a different vocabulary. I suppose this is drifting off-topic, but labeling does increase a sense of existential isolation in me. What if people never actually comprehend each other? That's a hard question to look into too deeply because it strikes at the heart of existence. It feels like we are all trees that fell in the forest and were never heard.

Jung spoke of this with respect to the P/J divide, but it seems that it could be replicated again and again. He said we project our own internal worldview...and assume the other people see the world the same way. So we all assume we are communicating-when in reality we exist in a state of mutual lifelong miscommunication. It only becomes apparent with very different types-say ESTP and ENFP for instance.

I could see this being especially hard on Fe. It also ties back into highlanders original statement "Just because I dont disagree openly, doesnt mean I agree with the Fe user" Contrast that with Proteanmix's, Pitsleah's and Jag's comments that they rarely see this disagreement in real life-likely because it is just easier for most people to let the lack of communication or disagreement go unmentioned.


i can see what PB is saying about Fe users not seeing to do this as much. i don't think it's so much a part of their conversational flow as it is with Fi users. it seems like a Fi conversation is often like "personal story." "omg! i know what you mean! that reminds me of: personal story." "yes i felt that same way when: personal story." "oh but i actually felt the opposite when: personal story.". a Fe conversation doesn't run that way. there's like... prompting or something. i dunno. it's just not the same OMG ME TOO or NUH UH model. my Fe dom best friend, one of my favorite people in the world, is not like this either. she just doesn't really do emotional connection like i do - she breaks feelings down and starts planning how to address them instead of extrapolating from them. .

I suspect this diff in communication styles may be one of the most valuable clues to how Fe and Fi work differently. They may also be the most important to codify and turn into a toolkit for use. You find chunks of this in communication books, but because it blurs things together, it lacks the resolution to yield effective results.

i think about this too sometimes. but we all do comprehend each other, so much that it's sometimes unbelievable... just being able to share a silence with someone else is kind of an amazing beautiful thing. i think we freak ourselves out by going down the rabbit hole... i do sometimes :doh: the nature of MBTI is analytical... dividing. it breaks things down to make them easier to understand. so it's absolutely true that if we just keep breaking and breaking, there will be nothing left... but at the same time, the building blocks can also help us rebuild the way we want to. i think there's a forest of "humanity" regardless of whether we have MBTI or not... a first kiss or racing your best friend across the kitchen in slippery socks or picking flowers with your grandma... that stuff all transcends type. humans transcend type because humans made type. ultimately it's just a decent way of looking at things, not necessarily a truth at all...

^^beautiful as Te blurs into the reality that Fi understands to be true...
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
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Messages
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sx/sp
Pretty much all the Fi doms I am close to are all about harmony with others. themselves. The Fi users that I have noticed that have the "I will say and do whatever the hell I want" vibe are the XXTJs.

These are only two functions in isolation. Again, they are preferences and not some indication of black and white behavior.

If we take an ENFP for example, the connecting behavior you're seeing is more likely related to Ne and we use the functions together - not in isolation. I think people sometimes confuse intuition with feeling.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
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INFP
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6
Pretty much all the Fi doms I am close to are all about harmony with others. themselves. The Fi users that I have noticed that have the "I will say and do whatever the hell I want" vibe are the XXTJs.

This is true. I'm very motivated by maintaining harmony with those I care most about. But sometimes "I need to say this" outweighs that need. Like when my parents make racist or homophobic remarks.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
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Messages
23,989
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INFP
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Pretty much all the Fi doms I am close to are all about harmony with others. themselves. The Fi users that I have noticed that have the "I will say and do whatever the hell I want" vibe are the XXTJs.

This is true. I'm very motivated by maintaining harmony with those I care most about. But sometimes "I need to say this" outweighs that need. Like when my parents make racist or homophobic remarks.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
These are only two functions in isolation. Again, they are preferences and not some indication of black and white behavior.

If we take an ENFP for example, the connecting behavior you're seeing is more likely related to Ne and we use the functions together - not in isolation. I think people sometimes confuse intuition with feeling.
That's quite interesting. Can you please elaborate on the bold?
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
Fi
Whose feelings? - It cares about it's own feelings
What values? - It is about listing to your conscience; your own internal standards and ethics. The values it concerns itself with are private subjective core values. They are personal values
At what cost? - You are following your own value system regardless as to the consequence
Harmony with who? - It's about harmony with oneself

This is a very good Ni hunt for the underlying rules of Fi ^^ :)

I value the happiness of others a great deal-to the point of being a people pleaser.

I suspect since I strongly mirror the pain of those around me-their pain becomes my internal feelings- thus I seek to minimize that internal pain, by helping the other people or finding ways to make their existence happier.

Over a lifetime, this yields personal values focused on helping others be happier and minimizing the pain and unhappiness of others.

I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET! :)
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
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1w2
Fe
Whose feelings?- It is centered on the feelings of others and creating an environment of harmony
What values? - It is concerned with objective generally accepted values and norms
At what cost? - It sacrifices personal values so as to not offend other people
Harmony with who?- It is about harmony with others

Also, Fe is inclined towards immediate, concrete and specific action. It wants to do things - affirm people, make them happy, establish harmony, etc. Fi is not so focused on this unless it is really riled up in which case, it can react very strongly.

Not true, I just don't know how many times I have to say it. I am not a sacrificial lamb and I quite openly (as tactfully and diplomatically as I know how) disagree with people. Like you have mentioned, sometimes it's not worth fighting it but when it is you do.

Maybe I'm around abnormal Fe-users (particularly FJs) because that is simply not the case based on my personal experiences. FJs are I know are quite vocal when they disagree and will make the biggest scene you've ever had the pleasure to witness and will tear the place down if you try to stop them. I've made the scene before and will probably do so many times in my life. Not the best or most flattering Fe trait, but it exists.

I guess also when you say that, it makes Fe feel passive and feeble, but that's probably my spin on it. I also think this is another problem when people talk about Fe: Fi is allowed to be individually experienced--no two people experience it the same allegedly. Yet Fe is pretty blanketedly the same, no matter where you go, who you are, or what your background is. Fe will have the same reactions, reach the same conclusions, behave in the same way, feel the same way, think the same thing. Why rob Fe users of their unique expressions of Fe? If a Fe user says, this is not me, I feel like there's this assumption the Fe user is inaccurately gauging themselves.

Another thing, when a Fe user speaks about Fe, notice what aspect they emphasize. For example, I'm more into connections and relationships than harmony. Understand that each Fe users will hone on and identify with an aspect a Fe that strikes them. I admit that I feel good about my ability to analyze a relationship, but I'm not willing to STFU when I think something needs to be said. That has it's positives and negatives. Do you think IRL, FJs (I find it hard to lump TPs in with this) don't disagree with people and make it known? If I were a vegetarian and was given food with meat in it, I'd politely decline. I don't put myself out just to have harmony.

I recently applied to a position that had a cognitive-behavioral question that asked, "Tell me about a time when you had to conform to a policy that you didn’t necessarily agree with. How did you proceed?"

I'm curious to find out would Fi users refuse to do the work or quit the job because they didn't personally agree with something. This was my reply:

If confronted with this situation, I would first assume good faith presuming that organizational policy is based on sound reasoning for the benefit of all. I understand that I may not have the whole picture at times, and an enhanced perspective often changes one’s opinion on a matter.

I would have a conversation with my director to see if I am correctly interpreting the policy. It could be a simple difference in interpretation, which communication can clarify. If I disagreed with the policy on principle, ultimately I was hired to do a job and if I had a serious values misalignment, I would not have accepted employment. If I were asked to do something illegal or clearly unethical, I would begin looking for new employment.

When the statement "personal values" is thrown about I feel like there are people constantly walking around drawing lines in the sand, refusing to do because a personal value is on the brink of being violated. Maybe I don't have very many personal values, so I don't feel like there's a constant assault on them. If I have a strongly held value, I'm not going to break it just to have peace. What kind of person does that make me...that means I don't stand for anything.

This is what frustrates me about these Fe/Fi discussions, very often Fi users act like there's some moral vacuum with Fe. Not everything is a moral battleground. If my director asks me to print 10 copies of a report and I'm a fervent green activist, I've got a decision to make: my income or my value. First and foremost, I hope someone would be self-aware enough to not choose to be in an environment that would force them to constantly choose between their values and doing their job or living their life in a way they can be at peace with.

Another thing, while you may feel your personal value is the most important thing in the world, that does not mean it in fact is or that it should be a priority for anyone else. If someone makes a completely opposite decision or evaluation based on their personal value it does not mean there is an absence of values because it doesn't agree with yours. This concept of personal value is so abstract and I think people hide in the grandioseness of it, never needing to explain it because it sounds so beautiful and lofty so it must be good.

I could see this being especially hard on Fe. It also ties back into highlanders original statement "Just because I dont disagree openly, doesnt mean I agree with the Fe user" Contrast that with Proteanmix's, Pitsleah's and Jag's comments that they rarely see this disagreement in real life-likely because it is just easier for most people to let the lack of communication or disagreement go unmentioned.

I didn't say that. I see disagreements and miscommunications all the time IRL but I DO NOT attribute them solely or even mostly to Fe/Fi differences. There are more salient contributing factors to disagreements than the ones some people on this forum continually choose to emphasize while ignoring the ones that are the elephants in the room.
 

Jaguar

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Messages
20,647
On friday I finished my first Step II consultation. It was with an ENFP I work with. She tested as an ENTJ but verified as an ENFP. She described having anxiety attacks and emotional breakdowns because of her interactions with her boss and coworkers-mostly ESTPs.

Coincidentally mirroring your own life, right? Yes, I remember your posts about all the big, bad, ESTPs in your workplace. Now, interactions with ESTPs are being blamed for her emotional breakdown and anxiety attacks. Does the blame game ever stop? She didn't have a breakdown because of someone's MBTI type. She needs professional psychological counseling.


Jung spoke of this with respect to the P/J divide, but it seems that it could be replicated again and again. He said we project our own internal worldview...and assume the other people see the world the same way. So we all assume we are communicating-when in reality we exist in a state of mutual lifelong miscommunication.

Myers created the P/J, but let's move on.

Jung said a lot of things, but it doesn't mean what he said was true. Tell me we're not going to stop thinking for ourselves and make Jung our God. I don't even have a "worldview." I can't imagine automatically assuming people would see the world like me. It's absurd. They weren't raised by my parents and there are no two human brains alike.

Proteanmix's, Pitsleah's and Jag's comments that they rarely see this disagreement in real life-likely because it is just easier for most people to let the lack of communication or disagreement go unmentioned.

What is that nonsense?

If you are going to resort to twisting my own words to suit your personal agenda then don't even bother mentioning my name. Since you failed to understand my post the first time, here it is again:

What I have seen in this forum, I have never seen IRL. For decades, I spoke with almost 100 new people every day. Zero communication gap. Zero. If there was this massive divide, I sure as heck would have seen it. I hired, trained, and mentored teams of people while also building B2B relationships every single day. In other words, I wore several different hats with comfort.

I dealt with human beings. I didn't deal with Fi and Fe people.

It's unfortunate you don't realize people really can work well together on teams. Since it is so problematic for you to work with others, then stop complaining and be proactive. If I were in your shoes, I would work on my own as a consultant or start your own business so you could call your own shots. Maybe then, you would finally stop blaming your problems on others.

By the way, there is a self-proclaimed ENFP who said he prefers Fe over Fi but he uses both. He is the founder of this company:

www.insights.com

This company vision incorporates both Fe and Fi.

Our vision is to be the global provider of choice for learning solutions that inspire and transform individuals, teams and organisations. Insights has six core values which underpin all that we do. By understanding and living each of our core values we can build Insights as a value-based organisation. Working together as a team, while valuing and encouraging individual freedom. Making a difference through self-understanding, the development of individuals, teams, and organisations, and the practical application and development of Jungian psychology.


Not only is he the founder of that company, he also is a strong supporter of increasing the number of types, which was inspired by Angelo Spoto's work. Let's hope you don't resort to slandering the guy merely because he's an ENFP who prefers Fe over Fi. Just because you choose not to incorporate both Fe and Fi doesn't mean others can't do it, and do it well.
 

highlander

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I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET! :)

I have seen this in other ENFPs. They user their persuasive skills to get others to do things that are good for them (say like quitting smoking). They are confronting a bad situation in the hopes of long term gain. It is an amazing thing to watch - how anybody could be that persuasive and put themselves in the shoes of the other person.

Not true, I just don't know how many times I have to say it. I am not a sacrificial lamb and I quite openly (as tactfully and diplomatically as I know how) disagree with people. Like you have mentioned, sometimes it's not worth fighting it but when it is you do.

Maybe I'm around abnormal Fe-users (particularly FJs) because that is simply not the case based on my personal experiences. FJs are I know are quite vocal when they disagree and will make the biggest scene you've ever had the pleasure to witness and will tear the place down if you try to stop them. I've made the scene before and will probably do so many times in my life. Not the best or most flattering Fe trait, but it exists.

Well, I'm trying to describe something that I supposedly don't use very much and that I view from the outside. Maybe you can come up with a better description. I have known a lot of people who are strong Fe users (usually it is aux though) who very much are self sacrificing. They do things for others. They are concerned about the feelings of others. They make judgments about how others should behave and not behave. In general, they are simply highly others centric. I don't see this as feeble, weak or passive at all. In fact it seems highly action oriented.

Fi is allowed to be individually experienced--no two people experience it the same allegedly. Yet Fe is pretty blanketedly the same, no matter where you go, who you are, or what your background is. Fe will have the same reactions, reach the same conclusions, behave in the same way, feel the same way, think the same thing. Why rob Fe users of their unique expressions of Fe? If a Fe user says, this is not me, I feel like there's this assumption the Fe user is inaccurately gauging themselves.

I can't speak to this really. I don't understand the perspective you are describing. It may be that I didn't read the stuff in the other threads.

Another thing, when a Fe user speaks about Fe, notice what aspect they emphasize. For example, I'm more into connections and relationships than harmony. Understand that each Fe users will hone on and identify with an aspect a Fe that strikes them. I admit that I feel good about my ability to analyze a relationship, but I'm not willing to STFU when I think something needs to be said. That has it's positives and negatives. Do you think IRL, FJs (I find it hard to lump TPs in with this) don't disagree with people and make it known? If I were a vegetarian and was given food with meat in it, I'd politely decline. I don't put myself out just to have harmony.

Interesting points. So if it is all about connections and relationships - how do you go about doing that?

When the statement "personal values" is thrown about I feel like there are people constantly walking around drawing lines in the sand, refusing to do because a personal value is on the brink of being violated. Maybe I don't have very many personal values, so I don't feel like there's a constant assault on them. If I have a strongly held value, I'm not going to break it just to have peace. What kind of person does that make me...that means I don't stand for anything.

This is what frustrates me about these Fe/Fi discussions, very often Fi users act like there's some moral vacuum with Fe. Not everything is a moral battleground. If my director asks me to print 10 copies of a report and I'm a fervent green activist, I've got a decision to make: my income or my value. First and foremost, I hope someone would be self-aware enough to not choose to be in an environment that would force them to constantly choose between their values and doing their job or living their life in a way they can be at peace with.

Another thing, while you may feel your personal value is the most important thing in the world, that does not mean it in fact is or that it should be a priority for anyone else. If someone makes a completely opposite decision or evaluation based on their personal value it does not mean there is an absence of values because it doesn't agree with yours. This concept of personal value is so abstract and I think people hide in the grandioseness of it, never needing to explain it because it sounds so beautiful and lofty so it must be good.

Forgive me if I'm over-interpreting but the way I read your train of thought is: "I have personal values too - why do the Fi users think they are so special?" "Who says their values are any better than anybody else's" "All these individual values lead to chaos" and "you're not explaining your grandiose values anyway, so I can't do anything with this". You seem to be discounting the other perspective. Isn't it fine that there are two different perspectives and that they are equally valid? I've said it before and I will say it again - there is no reason to think that either function is better than the other. They are just different. It also doesn't mean that we don't use both of them. We just prefer one over the other.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Is this thread worth reading?

I just skimmed through what's been written since post 101...

(you can let me know your opinion in a rep, VM, or post. thanks :))
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
Are you kidding me, Orobas? I have had my share of disagreements with supposed Fi users but there is no where in hell that I chalked it up to just Fi.... if one does that, then they are really just seeing the world in black and white terms. There is more to life than just Fi and Fe. Sure, it may play a part but come on, there are so many other factors. My best is a FREAKING ISFP and we have never had communication problems. Also, my INFP mother and I understand each other pretty well even if we irritate each other sometimes. This is because I make a conscious effort to try to understand where others are coming from. I only notice the potential clash on the forums because WE OVEREMPHASIZE IT. I would say I conflict with other Fe users more sometimes. The person who confuses me the most is an ISFJ guy, to be honest.
 
H

Hate

Guest
I have come to the conclusion that the reason why I never have a problem with the Fi/Fe communication divide is because I’m such a damn good communicator. *brushes shoulders off*
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148

Jag, you are resorting to the pattern you often display. You attack the originator of an idea rather than the idea.

1) The idea is presented-The idea in this case is that Fe differs from Fi.
2) I presented a representative illustration that I have seen from my experience.
3) Instead of critiquing the idea, you twist the experience and say only people in need of counseling would view the situation this way.
4) You then move into personal attacks. Since my representative example-the other enfp, has had similar experiences, and made similar observations-she is personally attacked as needing counseling.

This makes it difficult to debate ideas as they keep twisting into a discussion of me as an individual rather than the topic at hand. Since we do not agree on an idea-there is something wrong with me as a person. You also then extrapolate the discussion about the topic into my insulting other people-the ENFP you mention above. I noted you did this to Highlander as well earlier. When I debate ideas they are separate from the person, thus I would never insult the ENFP you mention-rather I would delightfully engage him in a discussion. In the same way I would never insult you, but rather consider your ideas, then counter with my own understanding and observations.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
This is a very good Ni hunt for the underlying rules of Fi ^^ :)

I value the happiness of others a great deal-to the point of being a people pleaser.

I suspect since I strongly mirror the pain of those around me-their pain becomes my internal feelings- thus I seek to minimize that internal pain, by helping the other people or finding ways to make their existence happier.

Over a lifetime, this yields personal values focused on helping others be happier and minimizing the pain and unhappiness of others.

I, personally, will sacrifice happiness of the people in the short term in order to achieve long term happiness-and suffer the consequences of immediate anger and frustration on their part. NeTe can see a better future via change. The resultant long term happiness yields internal harmony-with myself.

Interestingly-Ne forces me to feel the feelings of those close to me and those I have never met through extrapolation/connection. By taking your above rules and applying them to each Fi type, it might explain how Fi can develop such different values. SWEET! :)


I dont get Fi "people pleaser". Most of the time it seems like they try to help/please assholes. I dont get it and it honestly drives me nuts and pushes me away from Fi people in general. Asshole is an Fe judgement of rude, inconsiderate people. Not really "socially right", but someone who is just rude to others and could careless about someone else.

Makes me question if Fi can really feel Ti/Fe users. I begin to doubt that they have a clue as to what pain/hurt we feel.
 
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