Dear Fe User,

[Ginkgo]

"" is right.

 

[Jaguar]

There were some NFPs over in the Kanye West thread saying they totally understand him and would do what he did. CLEARLY this must be an Fi/Fe issue.

It could be a risk to dine in public with that guy. He might pee on the floor, just to make a point.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

For example, a friend of mine recently told me she's having trouble sustaining a mentor relationship with someone she asked to mentor her. My mind immediately went to crunching on the nature of mentor/mentee relationship, why is it weakening, what can be done to strengthen it, what kind of communications between her and her mentor could occur to revitalize the relationship. Yes, secondary thoughts were why is she feeling this way, what is frustrating her about this, why is it important to her, but when I say secondary, I mean within the length of a conversation. So then that's another point of frustration for me, to say that Fe doesn't think individual or contextual because for me it tends to happen within minutes.

this is interesting. as an Fi user, i'll be prone to this: [real life example] male at work is having relationship problems with his wife. as opposed to the Fe frame of thought, of, "well how can we fix this marriage problem?" i get stuck on the individual. "why do you feel this way?" "what do you wish you were doing instead?" "are you not happy?" etc. when it comes to their relationship, my "help" made the situation worse. his focused leaned away from the marriage and wife's needs, and more on his own. Fe is an incredibly viable tool!

I can get real with you and say that there is often a conflict with me when I'm an individual person, with my own individual interests and desires, and when I'm an African-American woman who's part of the larger black community. How do you articulate when those things conflict and how you decide how you're going to align yourself (sorry I don't opt out...it's the Jay in me) or how you move between the two or several? Sometimes it's not about me, and sometimes it is about me. Maybe it is simpler for a Fi user, who doesn't feel as much conflict between their group identity and their individual one because it's clear the individual identity will usually win. Personally, both are very important to me and I don't think my values are shadier because I hold a group identity on par with an individual one.

i wouldn't say it's simpler. it's more as though Fi doesn't think in terms of group and individual... but rather general values.

however, this makes my understanding of the enneagram very interesting. (change of subject, but perhaps enlightening?)
a lot of Fi users tend to be in the range of enneagram 3, 4, and 5. and i suppose it is because of this lack of group identity, though unknowingly developed, we become more obsessed with image, identity and knowledge. we're even more dependent on building up our own individual identity. especially in the case of the 4, who often suffers identity crises and alienation. interesting...

going back to your story though... i seriously doubt the Fe processes are simpler. just as the Fi processes aren't simple. and each one deserves their individual merit. each has it's stereotype. Fi's are selfish, Fe's are sheep. i don't think either is true. and it is because people over simplify each one's merits. both ultimately want the same things, which is to do the right thing, but achieve them in different ways with different outcomes. and being an Fe user, most will ultimately have to choose between one or another, too. for example, i was at work talking with an ISFJ and my female manager (whom i've yet to type correctly, but i'm leaning in the INxx realm...) i don't recall the exact conversation... but eventually my female manager sort of cut me down in a way, with her words. the ISFJ would have had to choose between the "work group" consensus and then my own individual feelings or "friend group." she ultimately chose to stand in as my guardian in the situation. but she was subtle as well... (perhaps aligning with the "work group" as well, but i don't know for certain.) but i felt for sure, that sense of standing up for me. and this isn't my only example of an Fe doing this that i have. my absolute two favorite coworkers are both ISFJ's, and i've seen them both do this sort of graceful saving. unlike an Fe user (subtle and tact) i'm a bit more blunt and brash about the things i believe in, and would love to learn more from an Fe user on the matter. for example, if a coworker was being talked down to by my boss, i would have to either A. speak up and tell my boss she's not being very nice, or B. just not say anything at all, because doing so would probably lead me to losing my job as i have no tact when it comes to standing up for someone else. Fe has learned a wonderful balance here. or rather, is naturally gifted in this arena.

 

[highlander]

This just occurred to me. From a Fe perspective when I hear the word "group" I believe my baseline picture of a group or is way different than yours. Maybe we should clarify this. When I re-read the OP and hear words like "groupthink" and "conformity" I get confused about how that differs from agreeing with someone or holding similar beliefs. If someone believed similarly to you and enough of you got together would it be groupthink anymore or just the right thing to do?

I checked out wiki to find out exactly a group is and maybe some ideas on why I'm not getting this at all. This is helpful, at least for me.

When I think of group, the focus for me is not a bunch of faceless, nameless hunks of flesh amassed together, my interest is focused on the shared interests, values, and ties. So what rankles me about these threads is that when I personally tell people what my focus is--the ties between people--it gets reinterpreted as disregard towards the individuals or tripping over social ritual. I suppose this is annoying as well for other Fe-users or maybe just FJs, IDK. I admit, the individual tends to blur a bit, but ultimately there is no tie or bond if there are no anchoring points. The anchoring points (the individuals) get a significant amount of attention too, especially when I'm one of them! And then when you think about the ties and connectors themselves: what are they, why are they important, just so many things to look at it even further annoys me when there is no thought into why I/a Fe user does what I do or just goes along with what I'm told to do when I feel like it's way more complicated than that.

I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.

When I think of a group, my immediate frame of reference is the primary group. Feel free to correct me, but I think when people think of Fe, they immediately think of the secondary group.

Interesting question - the primary group would be the one that's important it seems.

highlander, just for the purposes of what you're saying here let's say generally for Fe the secondary group is the primary group. Do you think that may lead to a high level of internal wrangling and dissonance with those values are at odds? What do you think the decision points are for conflicts between two primary groups (a SO and the family) with a Fe user or between a primary and a secondary group?

I can get real with you and say that there is often a conflict with me when I'm an individual person, with my own individual interests and desires, and when I'm an African-American woman who's part of the larger black community. How do you articulate when those things conflict and how you decide how you're going to align yourself (sorry I don't opt out...it's the Jay in me) or how you move between the two or several? Sometimes it's not about me, and sometimes it is about me. Maybe it is simpler for a Fi user, who doesn't feel as much conflict between their group identity and their individual one because it's clear the individual identity will usually win. Personally, both are very important to me and I don't think my values are shadier because I hold a group identity on par with an individual one.

These are really interesting points. I'm not sure I know but do think these things might be simpler for an Fi user because they wouldn't feel these conflicts as much.

I know you're not knocking the Fe process, but I can't help but feel like you've oversimplified it while valorizing the subjective process and I want to address this.

I think you're right - I did valorize the subjective process in the OP. I'm a little embarrassed by what I wrote there. I was obviously feeling some emotions.

 

[miss fortune]

*pouts*

apparently I'm horrible and overbearing I guess... even though I really don't care about conforming or fashion or anything because it requires more of an attention span than I posess

and I'm amused to read that no Fe user ever "finally got what Fi is" on the forum, when I actually DID finally get it- and explain it back as well- in a thread

 

[proteanmix]

I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.

I guess I see this as part of the miscommunication. Why are you juxtaposing "the right thing to do" (Fi) against "what other people think" (Fe)? That's a false dichotomy.

 

[Thalassa]

I like the wikipedia definition. Maybe somebody who prefers Fe just thinks more about the group - these shared values, interests, and beliefs - than someone who prefers Fi. The re-interpretation part sounds like the very misunderstanding or conflict between people who have different preferences. I think that someone who prefers Fe may have a tendency to focus much more on what other people feel/think than someone who prefers Fi. My decision process is more centered around what the right thing is to do - not how others may perceive it. If this cognitive function stuff is valid, it means these preferences do matter in our process of making decisions. It's sort of like a lens or filter right? I think to have strong preferences means that we have blind spots. Good decisions consider multiple perspectives.

I don't think Fe automatically means you worry what other people will think of you. It's just that you think of others, period. I don't think my ENFJ bff from high school or my ENFJ younger sister spend a great deal of time obsessing about how they appear to others in the way one might think of...it's just that as Fe doms they are inclined to think of solutions which benefit the entire family or the entire group, and that is their natural instinct. My ENFJ sister will hardly ever take sides in family squabbles and sees herself as some sort of neutral referee nudging people into harmony...I also think she's a 9w8 (the benevolent dictator! lol) and that also affects her behavior, not just Fe dominance, because my ENFJ bff is a bit different...for her it's just always come naturally to have a buttload of friends and people just plain like her, she has the ENFJ charisma. That's why I always argue with people who think I'm ENFJ. I'm like...yeah, no...I have a lot in common with my ENFJ sister and bff...but I see the difference, too, I'm either INFJ or ENFP.

Interesting question - the primary group would be the one that's important it seems.

This is very true. In any event, the Fe user may not automatically mesh to their surrounding "group" and can have strong convictions of morality or ethics just like an Fi user ... they aren't as wishy-washy and conformist as all that, otherwise you'd see a lot more SFJs abandoning their fundamentalist Christian upbringing in the South when they went away to college or what have you. It's pretty obvious to me who my old SFJ friends are from high school because when I see them on facebook they are DOGGEDLY determined to keep their primary group beliefs in face of the changing world. Fe can have just as much stubborn tenacity as Fi, though maybe it's more common with Si/Fe than Ni/Fe?

 

[highlander]

I guess I see this as part of the miscommunication. Why are you juxtaposing "the right thing to do" (Fi) against "what other people think" (Fe)? That's a false dichotomy.

I'm probably not using the right words. Maybe it's better to say I would lean towards leveraging personal values and conscience vs shared values or conventions. I would tend to not sacrifice my personal values to avoid offending someone. The risk is that you offend someone - which for example I seem to have done with Jaguar.

 

[proteanmix]

I'm probably not using the right words. Maybe it's better to say I would lean towards leveraging personal values and conscience vs shared values or conventions. I would tend to not sacrifice my personal values to avoid offending someone. The risk is that you offend someone - which for example I seem to have done with Jaguar.

OK, I see what you're saying. I think I would say this though: personal values and conscience (Fi) and shared values and consensus (Fe). Both can go horrifically wrong and both can go beautifully right. If the personal value is corrupt, how does it get corrected? If the shared value is corrupt, how does it get corrected?

 

[highlander]

OK, I see what you're saying. I think I would say this though: personal values and conscience (Fi) and shared values and consensus (Fe). Both can go horrifically wrong and both can go beautifully right. If the personal value is corrupt, how does it get corrected? If the shared value is corrupt, how does it get corrected?

Funny, I don't equate Fe with consensus but maybe I should think about that more.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm probably not using the right words. Maybe it's better to say I would lean towards leveraging personal values and conscience vs shared values or conventions. I would tend to not sacrifice my personal values to avoid offending someone. The risk is that you offend someone - which for example I seem to have done with Jaguar.

Well you're also an NT rather than an NF...so it's hard for me to gauge whether this is Fi or Fe...I will not needlessly offend people IRL, for example I know to behave differently around elderly people or in a classroom than I would at other times. If I respect people who are older than me who are Christians, for example, I would never dream of sharing my thoughts with them on religion like I would do with my close friends or on the Internet, because I know it would be needlessly hurtful.

However, I can see that Fi could be this way too, because they simply have the value of not hurting other people's feelings. SimWorld tried to tell me, in fact, that's what that was...that I was using Fi, and that my motive was "not to hurt people's feelings" vs. "socially correct behavior."

But I do know how to behave correctly, and I'm actually inclined to correct others if I think they're being a total boar. I have a sister who tests ENFP (but I think might actually be ESFP) and her selfish behavior at times makes me want to beat her up. I would never actually beat my sister up, but I sometimes am just staggered at how she will behave. Same with one of my roommates...who I think might be ESFP...she's really sweet, a good person with a good heart, but good lord she really does not think of others in these really weird, inconsiderate ways. It's really frustrating to have to deal with because she's so sweet, and yet is so self-absorbed. And I've really had to manage myself and think of ways to deal with it rather than confronting her head-on and saying what I want to say, because I don't want to hurt her or have bad blood between us, but still like "hey, good lord there's someone sleeping in this room, shut up!"

 

[Jaguar]

I believe I know exactly what you are talking about and the interesting thing about that post is that several people sent me reps or other messages to say they agreed with me. So, you may not like what I had to say, but realize there are people who do feel that way at times.

I apologize if what I said in that other thread offended you.

You're apologizing to the wrong person.
This isn't an ENTJ, INTP or ESFJ issue.

The issue is, you claimed X number of people you have worked with OUTSIDE this forum was a certain type. In this case, you chose ENTJ. You then came INSIDE this forum and targeted an innocent member who did nothing to you, and wasn't even speaking to you. Then you unloaded on the girl for doing nothing that was any different from what others were doing in that thread - talking about their intuition.

This is what she posted that set you off like a mexican jumping bean.

I tend to be right about my first judgements of people.

Any human being could have made that same statement.
But you decided to look over at her type and flip your lid on her, simply because she had the same type as a bunch of guys who pissed you off in business.

You don't owe me anything. The event had nothing to do with me.
You owe HER an apology.

When people start taking out their issues on people inside this forum for doing absolutely nothing other than having the same 4 letters in their profile as someone who pissed them off IRL, then MBTI is an abysmal failure. I can't imagine anyone condoning that insidious behavior.

 

[highlander]

You're apologizing to the wrong person.
This isn't an ENTJ, INTP or ESFJ issue.

The issue is, you claimed X number of people you have worked with OUTSIDE this forum was a certain type. In this case, you chose ENTJ. You then came INSIDE this forum and targeted an innocent member who did nothing to you, and wasn't even speaking to you. Then you unloaded on the girl for doing nothing that was any different from what others were doing in that thread - talking about their intuition.

This is what she posted that set you off like a mexican jumping bean.

Any human being could have made that same statement.
But you decided to look over at her type and flip your lid on her, simply because she had the same type as a bunch of guys who pissed you off in business.

You don't owe me anything. The event had nothing to do with me.
You owe HER an apology.

When people start taking out their issues on people inside this forum for doing absolutely nothing other than having the same 4 letters in their profile as someone who pissed them off IRL, then MBTI is an abysmal failure. I can't imagine anyone condoning that insidious behavior.

Oh - thanks for helping to clarify that. These are the two posts:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37224&p=1396031&viewfull=1#post1396031

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37224&p=1396163&viewfull=1#post1396163

I have a lot of flaws and do feel that I overreacted a bit there. One reason for that is that I had just personally experienced the item that I mentioned in the post, so your read is correct there. I stand by the essence of what I said though perhaps not the way I communicated it. Hopefully, I don't do these types of things very often - but yeah you're right. I will apologize to her.

 

[Jaguar]

Oh - thanks for helping to clarify that. These are the two posts:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1396031

http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1396163

I have a lot of flaws and do feel that I overreacted a bit there. One reason for that is that I had just personally experienced the item that I mentioned in the post, so your read is correct there. I stand by the essence of what I said though perhaps not the way I communicated it. Hopefully, I don't do these types of things very often - but yeah you're right. I will apologize to her.

I appreciate your candor. Good deal.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

i think about this too sometimes. but we all do comprehend each other, so much that it's sometimes unbelievable... just being able to share a silence with someone else is kind of an amazing beautiful thing. i think we freak ourselves out by going down the rabbit hole... i do sometimes the nature of MBTI is analytical... dividing. it breaks things down to make them easier to understand. so it's absolutely true that if we just keep breaking and breaking, there will be nothing left... but at the same time, the building blocks can also help us rebuild the way we want to. i think there's a forest of "humanity" regardless of whether we have MBTI or not... a first kiss or racing your best friend across the kitchen in slippery socks or picking flowers with your grandma... that stuff all transcends type. humans transcend type because humans made type. ultimately it's just a decent way of looking at things, not necessarily a truth at all...

I enjoyed reading your entire post and this last part was beautifully said. There are two or three people online who's posts sometimes resonate with me as having similar thinking like cascadeco and perhaps a couple of others, but I can't remember their type (I just remembered neptunesnet and a couple of ENFPs). I connect on important levels to one person IRL who's INTP, and on certain levels with family who are probably mostly IFPs. It is reassuring that people go about feeling connections because that is important. I don't find myself relating often, and I don't expect to understand the totality of another person. I glimpse into their soul like seeing a snowy egret fly over a lake, and it is beautiful. I remember those moments. There is just too much inside a person to know or be fully known even when there is desire and effort made. I think that can transcend type as well.

 

[Glycerine]

I am really confused about the Fe vs. Fi conflict sometimes. People keep telling me that I have REALLY strong Fe but at the same time, I don't see myself a slave to the group. If you piss me off or wrong me, I am for sure as hell not going to go out of my way to do things for you. You have to earn my respect for me to go of my way or I may be returning a favor. If I see the group's rules to futile and pointless, I don't put much stock in them and slowly start to rebel or leave the group.

I think the problem w/ Fe is when the person starts to expect things from others. This is a pointless endeavor because one can't control others' actions. Saying that, I still expect people to follow basic social conventions like introducing yourself or asking before sitting next to me (a stranger), not to talk loudly about your private life over the cellphone in a computer lab, if you say you are going to do something, do it or be straightforward about why you can't. Since I can't control what they do, I just let it be or don't engage them.

On the other hand, Fi can also be very demanding w/ expectations but w/ them the values aren't usually clearly laid out so it can be very frustrating.

I have seen both Fe and Fi users have both strong individual and group emphasis. Our world would be even more fucked if that weren't the case.

 

[wolfy]

Who is winning, Fi or Fe?

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Well you're also an NT rather than an NF...so it's hard for me to gauge whether this is Fi or Fe...I will not needlessly offend people IRL, for example I know to behave differently around elderly people or in a classroom than I would at other times. If I respect people who are older than me who are Christians, for example, I would never dream of sharing my thoughts with them on religion like I would do with my close friends or on the Internet, because I know it would be needlessly hurtful.

However, I can see that Fi could be this way too, because they simply have the value of not hurting other people's feelings. SimWorld tried to tell me, in fact, that's what that was...that I was using Fi, and that my motive was "not to hurt people's feelings" vs. "socially correct behavior."

But I do know how to behave correctly, and I'm actually inclined to correct others if I think they're being a total boar. I have a sister who tests ENFP (but I think might actually be ESFP) and her selfish behavior at times makes me want to beat her up. I would never actually beat my sister up, but I sometimes am just staggered at how she will behave. Same with one of my roommates...who I think might be ESFP...she's really sweet, a good person with a good heart, but good lord she really does not think of others in these really weird, inconsiderate ways. It's really frustrating to have to deal with because she's so sweet, and yet is so self-absorbed. And I've really had to manage myself and think of ways to deal with it rather than confronting her head-on and saying what I want to say, because I don't want to hurt her or have bad blood between us, but still like "hey, good lord there's someone sleeping in this room, shut up!"

i've had this problem with a fellow ESFP roommate as well. however, i consider this unhealthy Fi behavior. but perhaps i have a well developed Fe as well?? i don't know. i finally corrected my roommates behavior one day, when she had a terrible outburst at our other roommate (whom is her boyfriend). we had another friend that dropped in to visit, and it didn't make their fighting cease. i finally turned to the friend that dropped in and said, "man, aren't you just so glad you got to come by to enjoy this fun?" the ESFP roommate finally shut up and went to her bedroom. a while later, she came back out calmed down and apologized for her outburst. ever since then, she had become much more considerate of how her Fi outbursts might have an affect on others.

I am really confused about the Fe vs. Fi conflict sometimes. People keep telling me that I have REALLY strong Fe but at the same time, I don't see myself a slave to the group. If you piss me off or wrong me, I am for sure as hell not going to go out of my way to do things for you. You have to earn my respect for me to go of my way or I may be returning a favor. If I see the group's rules to futile and pointless, I don't put much stock in them and slowly start to rebel or leave the group.

I think the problem w/ Fe is when the person starts to expect things from others. This is a pointless endeavor because one can't control others' actions. Saying that, I still expect people to follow basic social conventions like introducing yourself or asking before sitting next to me (a stranger), not to talk loudly about your private life over the cellphone in a computer lab, if you say you are going to do something, do it or be straightforward about why you can't. Since I can't control what they do, I just let it be or don't engage them.

On the other hand, Fi can also be very demanding w/ expectations but w/ them the values aren't usually clearly laid out so it can be very frustrating.

I have seen both Fe and Fi users have both strong individual and group emphasis. Our world would be even more fucked if that weren't the case.

the first thing i highlighted in bold, reminds me of my ESFJ sister. and stereotypically, this isn't something one would except from an Fe... but it is. in regards to when people upset you, i've noticed Fe's will tend to make more fixed judgments when someone has angered them or annoyed them. but i'd hate to say this is the case with all Fe's... but just something more common with J types. perhaps this is actually something that is chocked up to Si in combination with Fe... i really don't know and have much less experience with Ni types. (ENFJ, INFJ)

also, another example where Fe seems to transcend stereotypical consensus behavior... my sister (the ESFJ) is married to a christian. me and my sister weren't raised in a religious household. so, whenever she has to go to church with him, she comes back with all sorts of complaints, judgments... and will often act incredibly sassy while in church with him, to the point her husband is often embarrassed. this is backwards from me, whereas though i may not share the same views, i keep it to myself and will act respectfully. perhaps my sister isn't a healthy Fe... i don't know. but i have several examples of my sister with this same behavior in different settings.

the thing is, Fe doesn't always follow consensus, and Fi isn't always absorbed in their own feelings or values. where our differences lie are difficult to define, and i believe has more entanglement or rather, emphasis, in Se vs. Si or Ne vs. Ni. feelers, otherwise are the same.

 

[Glycerine]

I definitely agree. I guess I did come off a bit strong. Well, in my experience, ISFPs are the types to be able to let things roll off their backs more than most other types unless they get fed up, you really get on their shit list (this is at the breaking point though.... it took my friend years of other people fucking her over to get to this point). EDIT: That was supposed to be a compliment but it probably came off as a diss...oops

 

[Sunny Ghost]

^ mmhmm.. difference of a P vs. a J.