Dear Fe User,

[Salomé]

Wut?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Hi Annwn,

Interesting post - I see what you are defining above as interactions well-described through the enneagram.

Myself, I score as high in Fe as Fi and almost the same Ne & Ni on those cognitive function tests, but I *know* I am not an Fe user. I tell you though, before I used to come to this site and really go deep on these Fe / Fi discussions, I saw myself as pretty darn proficient in Fe ... thought I had much more insight into the structural components of that "way of thinking". I don't; I just don't think the same way. Oh, I can pass myself off as one fair enough. (I agree the terms "Fe user" and "Fi user" are imprecise and lack sophistication ... and no one uses functions in isolation, but time and time again there are two sides to this fence, and the views of Fe are generally on one, and Fi on the other.)

I have not once come across a thread where an Fi user is trying to explain Fi and an Fe user say "OH I GET IT NOW!" Has not happened. Ever. So to me that's becoming a pretty powerful, replicated pattern. And I have given it my best shot too, and have not met with success either. There's this point where we can get oh so close, but like two poles of magnetic force, at some point we push away, we just don't seem to connect.

The point? I don't know; just that if this discussion bears fruit it would be pretty amazing. I am still hopeful.

Based on this comment and others, would you say that "Fi-users" don't presume to understand Fe when it is discussed or someone attempts to explain it to them? I haven't noticed what you are talking about, but I've also mostly avoided the Fi/Fe threads. I could see that if someone was explaining something it could be viewed as a desire to be understood, to which Fe would respond? It would be a flawed attempt to make peace or please the other person. It's a typical social gesture to say, "I know how you are feeling", when I suspect most people know deep down they don't. I think it actually means, "I've had similar, generalized negative feelings, and I don't want you to feel badly just like I didn't want to feel badly". This is way different from actually understanding the specific pain of a person.

So it is generally the case that people aren't going to understand functions that aren't part of their primary four? Si shouldn't expect to understand what Se is, etc.? Does a function have to be experienced in order to be understood? I can see on one level that would definitely be the case. MBTI does create categories that allows groups to stake out territory like iNtuitives who cannot be understood by Sensors, or Thinkers whose reasoning is above Feelers, or Ti is more creative than Te, etc. Sorry to bring up the negative connotations, but they exist in all directions and I don't subscribe to them, but do notice the territorial boundaries they create with inner and outer circles.

I had to admit though, that I'm not completely convinced by the whole MBTI system, so I mostly approach it as theory, and I don't identify strongly with functions or type. I can't really be offended by attacks against a function because I haven't internalized it as an identity. In this context other people always place you in a category, which doesn't bother me too much until it confuses communication beyond repair. I find that whatever type I am assumed to be creates mistaken assumptions about what I communicate. I suppose it isn't that different from real life, it just has a different vocabulary. I suppose this is drifting off-topic, but labeling does increase a sense of existential isolation in me. What if people never actually comprehend each other? That's a hard question to look into too deeply because it strikes at the heart of existence. It feels like we are all trees that fell in the forest and were never heard.

MBTI is still interesting to me because I don't know of a particularly better system, and there is also a lot to learn about people based on their relationship to the system in terms of how it defines and shapes their view of self, and the resulting relationships and assumptions that result from those identities.

 

[highlander]

Ok, I feel much better now . Hopefully I didn't offend anyone. Maybe the emotions I was feeling when I wrote the OP relate to those "Fi tripwires" that people mention.

 

[Poki]

On the one hand, I admire Fe. Its focus on connecting, compassion, giving and being accommodating are a big part of what makes the world a good place to live. It "honors" the feeling of others, which is really wonderful and because of all of these remarkable qualities, it facilitates the building of trusting relationships in the way that perhaps no other function can replicate. Without it, I don't know if harmonious society would be possible.

At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.

Don't get me wrong. I am a huge Fe fan. As I first stated, I see all of the good that it does in the world. Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think. Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself. When I think something is right or it's wrong, it's my own opinion and not the opinion of others. With that perspective in particular, it is important to pick your battles.

Anyway, I guess what really bothers me is a deep disconnect on the values as to what is important. It is enough to understand this and to see the worth of both perspectives, I suppose for now.

Thank you very much and carry on.

Dear Te users (I am gonna keep this short and sweet),

I also admire the determination, the effort put forth to organize and manage business. Alot of effort goes into making sure all sides get what they are after.

On the other hand, not everyone has to think alike. People can think what they want without having to be criticized. Your thoughts are not the end all be all and we do not respect the criticism that is forced upon others thoughts.

In conclusion. No thought is stupid....No feeling is lame.

edit: Meant Te users, not highlander specifically

 

[skylights]

It's a typical social gesture to say, "I know how you are feeling", when I suspect most people know deep down they don't. I think it actually means, "I've had similar, generalized negative feelings, and I don't want you to feel badly just like I didn't want to feel badly". This is way different from actually understanding the specific pain of a person.

i feel like

hurt
despairing
trapped
uncomfortable
frustrated
angry
loathing
restless

are all things we can all relate with. so to say "i understand how you feel", it's to say, i resonate with you on this level even though i will probably never understand all the complexities of who you are and what you're going through. it's an acceptance-bonding... it doesn't matter that you don't really get it all the way. it just matters that you are on the same page with this person in terms of their emotional motivations.

so when someone with Fe explains their viewpoint... i can't necessarily understand how they see things to an extent that i can replicate it in my own head... but i can certainly relate with the desire to help others or the warmth of friendship or the discomfort of embarrassment or the frustration of things going totally opposite of how you've hoped and planned. so i can say, "oh i see why you would feel that way", without it being disingenuous at all. but that doesn't mean i necessarily really get it. just that i accept that viewpoint as reasonable and want to convey a sense of kinship/warmth with the other person.

i can see what PB is saying about Fe users not seeing to do this as much. i don't think it's so much a part of their conversational flow as it is with Fi users. it seems like a Fi conversation is often like "personal story." "omg! i know what you mean! that reminds me of: personal story." "yes i felt that same way when: personal story." "oh but i actually felt the opposite when: personal story.". a Fe conversation doesn't run that way. there's like... prompting or something. i dunno. it's just not the same OMG ME TOO or NUH UH model. my Fe dom best friend, one of my favorite people in the world, is not like this either. she just doesn't really do emotional connection like i do - she breaks feelings down and starts planning how to address them instead of extrapolating from them.

i suppose anyone could say that we all defy Fe/Fi labels and this is all stupid but i don't think it is. maybe it's an imperfect theory, but it's not without use. and there's just something about the way PB and oro and Satine phrase things that is SO MUCH LIKE the way i think that i trust the definitions of this theory. and there is enough of a disconnect between me, and my mom and bff, that i again trust the dichotomy of these worldviews we're calling "Fe" and "Fi."

I find that whatever type I am assumed to be creates mistaken assumptions about what I communicate. I suppose it isn't that different from real life, it just has a different vocabulary. I suppose this is drifting off-topic, but labeling does increase a sense of existential isolation in me. What if people never actually comprehend each other? That's a hard question to look into too deeply because it strikes at the heart of existence. It feels like we are all trees that fell in the forest and were never heard.

i think about this too sometimes. but we all do comprehend each other, so much that it's sometimes unbelievable... just being able to share a silence with someone else is kind of an amazing beautiful thing. i think we freak ourselves out by going down the rabbit hole... i do sometimes the nature of MBTI is analytical... dividing. it breaks things down to make them easier to understand. so it's absolutely true that if we just keep breaking and breaking, there will be nothing left... but at the same time, the building blocks can also help us rebuild the way we want to. i think there's a forest of "humanity" regardless of whether we have MBTI or not... a first kiss or racing your best friend across the kitchen in slippery socks or picking flowers with your grandma... that stuff all transcends type. humans transcend type because humans made type. ultimately it's just a decent way of looking at things, not necessarily a truth at all...

 

[Thalassa]

Fi will be feel like "absolute right" but seems to come hand in hand with a live and let live mentality. It is much less likely to impose an individual value on others. OA did a very nice job describing this in her post-but as Marm also noted-I suspect enfps will have a tendency to stand up and share Fi values more than INFPs-but only if the Fi value is worthy. For me it has to be a really good one to try and inflict it on others.

Yeah I'm not even sure if I have Fi or Fe or if I believe they exist (I am speculative on this, and honestly in a way like some others have said, feel a grasp of both, and label myself INFJ according to Keirsey, not function theory) but while ENFPs seem to be more likely to have a cause, I think INFPs are actually more likely to label people they perceive behaving unethically as "mean" and in my observation some of them make a bigger fuss on the forum and seem more offended than any ENFP here. ENFPs seem more difficult to offend. This isn't intended as a statement to rip on INFPs in any way, it's just an observation that I have made on this forum.

I see the need for both Fi and Fe, and I also see the need for both of them to sometimes curb it and be more reasonable. This applies to me just as much to others.

 

[Jaguar]

we all defy Fe/Fi labels and this is all stupid

Exactly.

 

[highlander]

Pardon me Random as I rant just a bit...^^This shit kills me. literally on a daily basis. I have watched million dollar projects bomb due to the need for agreeability. If you stand up and point out flaws, you are not invited to future meetings as you are being "pessimistic". After a few months, the whole project is being run in these land of miracles where cotton candy blooms from the trees and little dwarfs go swim in rivers of chocolate. Everybody is soooo nice and the whole project is doomed to fail. It is like the goal of the group is to be happy and harmonious and continue to exist from day to day rather than actually produce a product.

I dont use Fe. I actually have enormous respect for your insight and have learned a great deal from your posts Annwn, as you exhibit a beautiful soul, but most often I note that it is Fe users who claim to be able to use both Fe and Fi-leading me again to suggest the Fe user is mistaking their internal Fe mindset for something more universal. I have seen two INFPs who might use Fe-but when they do it can be a bit catty.

But is the goal to meet the needs of the people in the immediate moment or is the goal to implement a long term change that will result in better circumstances for all by implementing the most robust idea? Fe often chooses short term harmony by sending the "rude" Te users packing. The result is that they deliver a final result that is flawed logistically. By not allowing the direct honest critique that would yield a better design, an inferior result is achieved and in the end the company goes out of business. The averaged opinion of the majority WILL be inferior to the best idea. The best idea is at the top of the gaussian curve-it is an outlier. To gain adoption and end up being presented for approval by the group, it has to migrate through a bunch of negotiation and at each round, it is minimized.

I understand and agree so much with the things you are saying here.

Exactly.

So do you believe in any of this stuff?

If you don't then why are you here?

i can see what PB is saying about Fe users not seeing to do this as much. i don't think it's so much a part of their conversational flow as it is with Fi users. it seems like a Fi conversation is often like "personal story." "omg! i know what you mean! that reminds me of: personal story." "yes i felt that same way when: personal story." "oh but i actually felt the opposite when: personal story.". a Fe conversation doesn't run that way. there's like... prompting or something. i dunno. it's just not the same OMG ME TOO or NUH UH model. my Fe dom best friend, one of my favorite people in the world, is not like this either. she just doesn't really do emotional connection like i do - she breaks feelings down and starts planning how to address them instead of extrapolating from them.

i suppose anyone could say that we all defy Fe/Fi labels and this is all stupid but i don't think it is. maybe it's an imperfect theory, but it's not without use. and there's just something about the way PB and oro and Satine phrase things that is SO MUCH LIKE the way i think that i trust the definitions of this theory. and there is enough of a disconnect between me, and my mom and bff, that i again trust the dichotomy of these worldviews we're calling "Fe" and "Fi."

Exactly

 

[highlander]

So it is generally the case that people aren't going to understand functions that aren't part of their primary four? Si shouldn't expect to understand what Se is, etc.? Does a function have to be experienced in order to be understood? I can see on one level that would definitely be the case.

I think it can be very difficult to understand a function that isn't well developed - not sure if it is the primary four, the top two, three, or something else. You can recognize it. You can understand it in concept. I don't think you really and truly understand it in the way that someone who has a strong preference for it though.

MBTI is still interesting to me because I don't know of a particularly better system, and there is also a lot to learn about people based on their relationship to the system in terms of how it defines and shapes their view of self, and the resulting relationships and assumptions that result from those identities.

I don't know of a better system either. It seems pretty useful to me as a framework to promote understanding.

 

[Jaguar]

So do you believe in any of this stuff? If you don't then why are you here?

Sim used to pull that same tactic on members. If anyone didn't agree with his POV he'd shoot this line at them: "Why are you here?"

I think this exchange is necessary to remind you, and others, of what this forum is:

As I usually say when this comes up, we try to be a site where typology can be investigated and critiqued, not just swallowed wholesale. Which is why we don't delete posts that are critical of MBTI. We welcome skeptics; I am one myself.

The next time an obnoxious person asks me why I am here, I think I will just use your post to shut them up.

I thank you for your fairness and objectivity, Ivy.

Enough said.

 

[MacGuffin]

Sim used to pull that same tactic on members. If anyone didn't agree with his POV he'd shoot this line at them: "Why are you here?"

I think this exchange is necessary to remind you, and others, of what this forum is:


Enough said.

Yeah, but what do you believe? Are you a skeptic? If you don't believe in Jungian-derived personality typing, what appeal does this forum hold for you? The people you encounter? Other non-MBTI ideas?

 

[Glycerine]

I am w/ you, Jaguar. I know there are some general differences between Fe and Fi but once you try to go deeper, it becomes arbitrary because of so many other factors. I hate the forced divide. How many of the differences could you really account for just based on Fi and Fe?

 

[Jaguar]

Yeah, but what do you believe? Are you a skeptic? If you don't believe in Jungian-derived personality typing, what appeal does this forum hold for you? The people you encounter? Other non-MBTI ideas?

If you want to know what I think, peruse my posting history.
It's what anyone would do, if they were actually serious.

I am w/ you, Jaguar. I know there are some general differences between Fe and Fi but once you try to go deeper, it becomes arbitrary because of so many other factors. I hate the forced divide.

Forced divide. Now that's a great way of putting it, indeed.

 

[MacGuffin]

If you want to know what I think, peruse my posting history.
It's what anyone would do, if they were actually serious.

Where are the relevant posts?

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah Jag, from what I know of highlander I don't think that question was meant as a challenge so much as just asking for more information. Being that this is primarily a typology site, it's a reasonable thing to ask. I realize that many people here don't actually believe in MBTI or enneagram or anything else. It's just helpful to better understand what brought them to those conclusions. In my case I feel that perhaps they have considered some things that I haven't as they have been thinking about that stuff longer. Can't speak for highlander though.

 

[Poki]

You have to understand Ni and how it works. Ni is about understanding concepts internally, and whether MBTI is wholely applicable or not you still learn to understand, to work with people, see new POVs, etc. Some people *cough* sim *cough* get so caught up on the theory that they forget to see whats around them and about people and focus on the theory. When I say understanding internally I dont mean take in MBTI strictly, but a combination of MBTI and life and understanding on here that the 2 combine and interact and yours and my MBTI becomes part of the puzzle as everyone else is trying to understand as well.

Some are on here to learn MBTI without the "formal theory", some are here to learn the theory, some are just here because its fun playing with people about who they are, who they think they are, who they try to hide, and who they try to be.

 

[highlander]

Sim used to pull that same tactic on members. If anyone didn't agree with his POV he'd shoot this line at them: "Why are you here?"

I think this exchange is necessary to remind you, and others, of what this forum is:

Enough said.

Yeah, I'm with MacGuffin on this. It is an honest question - not a tactic. Are you saying you are here because you're interested in investigating and critiquing MBTI or typology? If so, why? Why do you care about it at all? I guess that is what I am trying to understand.

 

[Fidelia]

Was that at me? I'm a Ni dom...

I know Jag is sort of skeptical about the whole thing but never have really heard why. I kind of waffle back and forth about how I feel about MBTI, functions, enneagram etc, so I was looking for more information from his perspective.

 

[highlander]

I am w/ you, Jaguar. I know there are some general differences between Fe and Fi but once you try to go deeper, it becomes arbitrary because of so many other factors. I hate the forced divide. How many of the differences could you really account for just based on Fi and Fe?

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. You might be saying that people use both, but the more I learn, the more I realize how different the two functions actually are.

 

[proteanmix]

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. You might be saying that people use both, but the more I learn, the more I realize how different the two functions actually are.

The continued assertion that the two functions are so different is meaningless when you're on a granular level. If a Fe user gets burned by a flame they go "ow!" and a Fi user goes "aw!" Literally like the nerves and sensors of the body react in completely different ways. People act like Fe and Fi users have completely different emotional repertoires, that concepts don't translate between languages and if they do it's a barely understandable translation. I believe the people that have the most problems bridging between the Fe or Fi users in their real life (I think these miscommunications are exacerbated online) are the ones that are very deeply entrenched in their Fe or Fi mindsets.

These are the ones that believe if you know whether or not they're a Fe/Fi that you can predict what car they drive, what job they have, a person's political and religious affiliations, the color of their socks, and what kind of toothpaste they use. When people start linking behaviors and belief systems to this my eyes glaze. The thing about it is you can't prove or disprove anything so it's like the song that doesn't end.