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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #661
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    Guilt is universal. It may come from somewhere individual for each person, but all someone has to do if they wish to sway people is to tap into this guilt in a general enough, yet targeted way that feeds on it. Such in the same way that a fortune teller makes general enough statements to blanket most people that come in to visit them, yet targeted enough to make it seem genuine for any individual. As far as I'm concerned, guilt is the easiest negative emotion to tap into to get the masses to think one way or another.
    But why is that Fe? It seems more of an attempt to hit Fi. Advertising hits a lot of different ways, of course, having really begun with Freud's nephew and hiting primal issues like fear and lust. Those crass emotional appeals are completely useless on me as I feel no guilt about someone starving off in some other country. I feel compassion and not guilt.

    I might want to help, but that tactic is completely wrong, though I know it hits others well enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

  2. #662
    Unapologetically Curious Enthusiastic_Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    But why is that Fe? It seems more of an attempt to hit Fi. Advertising hits a lot of different ways, of course, having really begun with Freud's nephew and hiting primal issues like fear and lust. Those crass emotional appeals are completely useless on me as I feel no guilt about someone starving off in some other country. I feel compassion and not guilt.

    I might want to help, but that tactic is completely wrong, though I know it hits others well enough.
    I can't claim to know Fe thoroughly, and can only assume based off of what I've asked others and how I interpret my own feelings and values, but it's the sort of basic logic that if someone has guilt for whatever reason, has this sore spot, then they perceive the world under this influence. Why Enneagram makes so much sense for many, since it defines a person on this core driver, but that's aside the topic. So if someone perceives the world through this influence, anything that even remotely touches on this soft spot, will be misconstrued and taken as in some relation to this core. In your case, let's use those commercials as an example, you feel this compassion rise up. Personally, I perceive those commercials rather negatively because I've grown up around people telling me all the time that I take this for granted, I take that for granted. I didn't grow up wealthy, but in an upper-middle class household, so I did have some privileges my friends didn't have access to. And some of that was true, when you're young, you don't know better, but that constant "shaming" led me to the point where any perceived attack on my person through emotion is almost instantly categorized as negative. Or rather, any incoming information through this mode of delivery, is taken with the utmost disdain.

    My point being, in responding to @Sinclair, is that everyone will have this perceived view of the world, and for many, there are weaknesses, guilt isn't the only one, that is able to be tapped into, to motivate and drive people to do as you wish. Whether these motives are intentional or not, is up to the person using such tactics.

    Of course, don't take my words as my projection of "fact", I don't claim to be some psychologist or have ever studied it. These are just my observations
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  3. #663
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    I can't claim to know Fe thoroughly, and can only assume based off of what I've asked others and how I interpret my own feelings and values, but it's the sort of basic logic that if someone has guilt for whatever reason, has this sore spot, then they perceive the world under this influence. Why Enneagram makes so much sense for many, since it defines a person on this core driver, but that's aside the topic. So if someone perceives the world through this influence, anything that even remotely touches on this soft spot, will be misconstrued and taken as in some relation to this core. In your case, let's use those commercials as an example, you feel this compassion rise up. Personally, I perceive those commercials rather negatively because I've grown up around people telling me all the time that I take this for granted, I take that for granted. I didn't grow up wealthy, but in an upper-middle class household, so I did have some privileges my friends didn't have access to. And some of that was true, when you're young, you don't know better, but that constant "shaming" led me to the point where any perceived attack on my person through emotion is almost instantly categorized as negative. Or rather, any incoming information through this mode of delivery, is taken with the utmost disdain.

    My point being, in responding to @Sinclair, is that everyone will have this perceived view of the world, and for many, there are weaknesses, guilt isn't the only one, that is able to be tapped into, to motivate and drive people to do as you wish. Whether these motives are intentional or not, is up to the person using such tactics.

    Of course, don't take my words as my projection of "fact", I don't claim to be some psychologist or have ever studied it. These are just my observations
    I agree with this, more or less, but I merely object to it as Fe. Fe is not about guilt and guilt tripping. My ISTJ father is the king of the guilt trip, but there is zero feeling behind his words. He is using tools he learned from others and firing them out at the world, sort of like all his jokes are borrowed from a college roommate who did stand up comedy.

    Ad men and women use tools to hit us emotionally. Freudian manipulation at its finest. Most are done through music and visuals, to bypass the thinking process.

    I do find guilt to be a big motivator for Fi types, but I have never explored the idea, it just has been sitting around in the mind, incomplete. Might need to ponder more on that.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so
    Likes Cloudpatrol liked this post

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I agree with this, more or less, but I merely object to it as Fe. Fe is not about guilt and guilt tripping. My ISTJ father is the king of the guilt trip, but there is zero feeling behind his words. He is using tools he learned from others and firing them out at the world, sort of like all his jokes are borrowed from a college roommate who did stand up comedy.

    Ad men and women use tools to hit us emotionally. Freudian manipulation at its finest. Most are done through music and visuals, to bypass the thinking process.

    I do find guilt to be a big motivator for Fi types, but I have never explored the idea, it just has been sitting around in the mind, incomplete. Might need to ponder more on that.......
    Ahh I see. Actually, as I was wrapping up my reply, it just occurred to me that I didn't actually tie it back to Fe I was aware that's what you were asking about, but I sort of went off on tangent. I don't always relate my observations and incites strictly to any particular functions all the time, so what I mentioned could really, just be applied to anyone, Fi or Fe. My bad. I do find all of this very interesting though, though, perhaps I better not continue with my unguided observations here in this thread
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  5. #665
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I'm amazed this tread, started from a sense of frustration about a particular interaction with one forum member is still going.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  6. #666
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm amazed this tread, started from a sense of frustration about a particular interaction with one forum member is still going.
    Threads are magical. They take on a life of their own. And evolve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so
    Likes Cloudpatrol liked this post

  7. #667
    Typology Retiree Yamato Nadeshiko's Avatar
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    dear Fe users everywhere,

    please ignore people who have poor understandings of Fe and have a good day.

    sincerely, 21lux
    4 weeks on T
    Eat EVERYTHING!

  8. #668
    Senior Member Babybop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themightyfetus View Post
    I think Fe can be quite unhealthy, especially when the individuals are young. ESFJs in high school are either the sweetest people ever, or they're the worst bitches.

    Fe isn't immature. The individuals are. Fe just seems more outwardly immature because, well, it's an outward and interpersonal function. But healthy Fe is the most wonderful thing, I promise. I've seen it.

    I don't know how old you are though. This is just something I've noticed.
    Yeah, healthy Fe is great. I mostly see it in middle-aged and older adults though, not usually in my age group. I'm 19 btw and just finished my first year of college.

    I don't mean to hate on Fe, it just pisses me off how people who claim to be warm and caring are so quick to gang up on people, sometimes for no reason. I've had a lot of bad experiences with this in online groups especially. People would get tired of shit, so they'd leave, and there would always be hundreds of comments (mostly from Fe-users) about how they're pathetic, an attention seeker, etc. That's what gets to me, when they decide it's okay to be rude because other people are doing it.
    Previous username: EliaBlack

  9. #669
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    How much of MBTI is to be trusted in an elasticity sense? That is XXXX type has processing and absorption of information in a particular slant but also presents particular outcomes both negative and positive.

    On that assumption: are types even able to 'help' their behaviour? If so, why bother with types? The same outcome from different resources is not as likely as different outcomes...though maybe citation needed. Does one 'snap back' to the processing of the type they are? So learning to understand weaker elements of our processing allegedly towards the goal of a more balanced whole and healthy individual? Whatever that is.

    Identity being the forged narrative that we make up; is there not a similar element to type?

    I've got no issues with ragging on Fe...I tend to rag on Fe myself. But the diversity of a situation and it's contributions to behaviour is also not to be overlooked.

    If Fe really contributes towards these various issues, can it in fact be altered by effort? In the sense that the dominant is pretty much a king sitting on the backs of the others, they can advise and influence (and the inferior can manipulate brilliantly as the jester of the court) but ultimately all filters back through the king and is trying to look at the 5th dimension with 4th or 3rd dimensional eyes.

    I know I believe it can be altered, but then...*twang*
    'Consciousness is not simply a sensory-perceptual affair, a matter of mental imagery, as the contents of our mind would have us believe. It is deeply enmeshed with the brain mechanisms that automatically promote action readiness' - Jaak Panksepp

  10. #670
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post

    At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.
    I have a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea/understanding the notion that Fe types (appear to) get angry at people for holding unpopular opinions or for going against the grain of the group. I understand (from having read this basic assumption over and over again, from different people) that truly is how it looks- but I have a really hard time understanding it. It's like assuming an engine works because the spinning tires make it go- as if the spinning tires are the source of the energy fueling the engine, instead of it actually working in the other direction.*

    I think in general, judgments that are typically doled out by FJs are not fueled by popular view- at least, no more or less than any other type. They are fueled by actual observations about the world, actual critical observation done on an individual level: where introverted perception is people-oriented, there's a priority to troubleshoot potential interpersonal problems. (Not to mention, where Pi > Pe, there's less tolerance for the external world imposing surprise obstacles.) Metaphorically speaking, there are dominoes we are reluctant to knock over- not because "it simply isn't done" or because we are lemmings and we're afraid to go against the grain- but because authentic critical assessment has recognized the consequent dominoes that fall along with it and decides ahead of time that it isn't worth the consequence. No offense, but it seems like (some) FPs and TJs can be completely blind to the consequent dominoes that are actually fueling our (very individual and critical) 'judgment'.

    This study about perceptual blindness has been brought up before to explain why some types 'see' something completely invisible to other types: the invisible gorilla.



    Yes, it can be very frustrating when one individual FJ decides for other people that some particular domino isn't worthy of knocking over and acts (indeed, truly believes) as if there's something clearly 'objective' about that decision- that is arrogant. But a lot of that stems from the assumption others can also see what we're seeing- it doesn't occur to us to explain certain things because it seems like the reasons behind the thinking are *right there* in plain sight, and it could potentially even be offensive to point them out. When an FJ feels a strong emotional charge about the way something is being done in the external world, it's because their internal senses are perceiving a very real gorilla that's invisible to others. It's not because of "group values" (although the more real that gorilla is, the more likely there will be others in the group who also sense it). Other types do the same damn thing in their own way- TJs getting similarly forceful about their 'invisible gorilla' (because for Js, it can be exceptionally difficult to immediately put into words**) and Ps getting forceful in a more 'calm' way with rampant rationalization. When we, as individuals, become exclusively focused on our own invisible gorilla, and impulsively dismiss the possibility there are gorillas (in others' perceptions) we aren't seeing or that could possibly be as important as our own gorilla, it's the effect we tend to have on the world around us- it's a strong need to feel heard without simultaneous ability to listen, and it is indeed arrogant.

    The important thing to take away here is that the judgment doesn't come from "the group", or from some floating Fe hivemind out there- it's because we see a very real aspect of shared reality that you don't see. While deindividuation is a real phenomenon that occurs and influences an individual's way of processing information (more specifically, believing certain information is more 'correct' than it actually is), it doesn't happen more to Fe types. It's a human frailty shared equally across all types. And- I feel like a broken record here, like I've already 'preached' this over and over- I very much believe that if it seems to us like some entire 'type' falls prey to deindividuation more than our own type, there's likely a very real 'gorilla' we aren't seeing.

    *And before someone points out that you can start a car sometimes by making the wheels spin (battery issue)- you can't if there's no gasoline. In this analogy, the car is not electric and gasoline/fuel = individual, critical thought.

    **
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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