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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #621
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Fe users

    <list>

    Fi users

    <list>
    How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #622
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.
    The tert/inf users don't realize they're doing it. Even with Fi overridden by Te, Fi informs the Te decisions.

    One weird cognitive science fact: if you remove the emotional centers of the brain, one remains capable of making logical judgments, but incapable of making decisions.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #623

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    One weird cognitive science fact: if you remove the emotional centers of the brain, one remains capable of making logical judgments, but incapable of making decisions.
    It's the Why
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #624
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The tert/inf users don't realize they're doing it. Even with Fi overridden by Te, Fi informs the Te decisions.

    One weird cognitive science fact: if you remove the emotional centers of the brain, one remains capable of making logical judgments, but incapable of making decisions.
    Ooooo thanks for sharing that (assuming it is correct of course). The first thing that came to my mind was intps .

    How about for Fi/Fe inferiors?
    .

  5. #625
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You do know this is a B&W blanket statement, right?
    Everyone knows that all generalizations are false.


    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Ooooo thanks for sharing that (assuming it is correct of course). The first thing that came to my mind was intps .

    How about for Fi/Fe inferiors?
    My grad school advisor was INTP and had a very hard time finalizing decisions. I soon figured out how to force his hand when one was needed. We made a very good team.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #626
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do? I see a number of things in the Fi list which would probably be overridden by Te for INTJs; Ti might do the same for TPs.
    The lists, while seemingly accurate, don't relay the actual processes of the feeling functions in the psyche. What must be understood is the general dynamics of the judging functions themselves, and then one can specifically derive possible qualities some people may assume from that function. Some concepts of Socionics are in this post, if you aren't particularly interested in the general mechanisms, the answer to your question "How does this change based on whether the person has Fe/Fi as dom/aux, vs. in tert/inf as INTJs do?" is in the last paragraph.

    (Space-consuming lead-up explanation)


    To answer your question specifically, then, INTJ's conscious concerns of defining the self often include whether or not others respect them and their ideas intellectually* along with objective measurements such as achievements and accomplishments (Auxiliary/Creative Te), then, they have an unconscious overtone, which is more or less nagging at the back of the INTJ's thoughts, including such definitions of self such as whether or not they are truly living up to their internal ideal, their sense of self, whether or not they are being truthful to what they believe (ethically, culturally), and whether or not they are living up to their specific values (Tertiary/Mobilizing Fi).

    Therefore, for the INTJ,

    Primary, Surface Concerns: Does my thinking align with that of the scientific community/academia or with common/accepted knowledge?
    Secondary, Deep Concerns: Am I really living up to who I think I am, am I on the right path, is this who I am?

    *More or less whether or not you adhere to common systems of thought imposed by society (and by society, I mean academia, mainstream science, etc.)

  7. #627
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'll respond to your post more in detail later but for now, I think it might be worth reposting something that I had earlier which summarized things. I started this thread when I was frustrated with a particular Fe person - who is a wonderful person really - but at that particular point, something she had done hit a nerve. I can't even remember what it was. Anyway, it was kind of a discovery process for me because I don't think I really understood Fe vs. Fi at the time. There was a lot of good dialogue and here is what I learned through the thread.
    I thought that might be the case, but didn't feel like hashing through the entire thread. Eh, I needed to kill some time mostly. But thanks for reading my post nonetheless. I am glad the thread was educational for you. Sounds like your friend may have had some conformity issues, though.

    A couple of notes:
    - Fi personal values are abstract to Fe types - they want Fi types to communicate their values in a more concrete way
    I guess this is parallel to the Ti/Te miscommunications thing.

    - Fe types are frustrated with what they perceive as inflexibility of the Fi types to consider the perspectives of others
    This does annoy me. At times, it's even devalidating and hurtful.

    - Fi types feel threatened by Fe social dynamics (a game they don't want to play)
    Can xxTPs fall under this category too? I, too, was once sooper-pissy about playing "the game" and being "nice". I felt like a sell-out when I realized that basically I had to do this to get by! But I have found that it suits my purposes once I got past the initial revulsion.

    I thought you had a decent summary of the Fe process. A couple of comments:
    Fe users
    - are ruled by objective and more broadly accepted values
    AKA, the social code. It's more like I pay respects to this rather than internalize those values (which I guess would be using an Fi-like process)

    - express emotion with intentionality and forethought for optimal effect
    That's EXACTLY right, and why it gets called manipulative. It's an interpersonal calculation.

    - have a harder time confronting others; are more diplomatic
    - are more practical; willing to make compromises
    Here's something no one gets! I'm an Fe-user. I think you know my enneagram type and tritype--I kept getting told by the ignorant I couldn't be 8-fixed or triple reactive because I know how to make compromises and I'm not confrontational. I don't pick fights on message boards and I don't particularly like to. Knowing I'm Fe, though, helps me to understand and accept why that is.

    It's exactly right.

    Fi users
    - have an easier time confronting others; are more brash
    Oh I know non-confrontational xxFPs. I guess it comes from self-referencing more than maintaining others' feelings though, so that particular calculation is less in place.

    - focus on being true to who they are
    Again, though, I wonder if TPs are more like this? When 4-fixed anyway. I have extreme reactions to phoniness in myself or having to be something I'm not. Damn near quit my job because they forced me to tie my hair back, dye it dark, and wear make-up. That was NOT in the job description. The only reason I complied at all is because...well, I'm broke. But GRRR....!

  8. #628
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The IxTp's (IxTJ's) are deeply concerned with how they perceive others, and generally base their interpersonal relations on whether or not they like or dislike others (Fi Mobilizing), while being mostly unconcerned (a more apt term would be ignorant or neglecting) with whether or not others actually like them or dislike them (Fe Vulnerable).
    Where are T (Te) considerations in IxTJ interpersonal relations? I doubt it all comes down to Fi "liking".

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Therefore, for the INTJ,

    Primary, Surface Concerns: Does my thinking align with that of the scientific community/academia or with common/accepted knowledge?
    Secondary, Deep Concerns: Am I really living up to who I think I am, am I on the right path, is this who I am?
    I would think INTJ's primary concern would be: does my thinking lead to the desired results? Is it effective? Aligning with some sort of academic standards or common knowledge seems more like Ti/Fe, or even Ti/Fe/Si.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #629
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Where are T (Te) considerations in IxTJ interpersonal relations? I doubt it all comes down to Fi "liking".


    I would think INTJ's primary concern would be: does my thinking lead to the desired results? Is it effective? Aligning with some sort of academic standards or common knowledge seems more like Ti/Fe, or even Ti/Fe/Si.
    Feeling is the reigning function in defining interpersonal relations, but the Thinking Functions do aid some as well; Extroverted Thinkers in interpersonal relationships will generally form relations with people who intellectually respect them (in similarity with Extroverted Feeling's 'Do they like me?'). This description here, however, deals only with the Feeling function's role in interpersonal relations, as the thread was concerning the Feeling functions.

    That's another directive of Te, what I was specifically talking about was defining the self through Judging functions, Extroverted Thinking allows the individual to define themselves on their accomplishments and what they have done. The concerns seen here are reflections on how you view people and how people view you, and therefore does not concern the other directives such as "does my thinking lead to the desired results?", but they do co-exist.

    Aligning with academic standards and common knowledge is the basis of Extroverted Thinking, the assimilation of technical information from society. Extroverted Thinkers, thus, accept information given by credible sources of knowledge, (and probably rejecting information given by not-so-credible sources) while Introverted Thinkers choose to make logical sense of all sources of knowledge (credible or not-credible), not accepting anything until everything is personally reasoned out.*

    These concerns, again, are based only off on how others perceive you and vice versa.

    Ti/Fe - Not inclined to care what others think of them intellectually, inclined to care what others think of them socially.
    Te/Fi - Inclined to care what others think of them intellectually, not inclined to care what others think of them socially.

    *An Extroverted Thinker, then, will generally learn about a branch of knowledge and will readily accept the knowledge taught to them by professors or textbooks, trusting in their credibility, while Introverted Thinkers must be able to personally reason out every inch of knowledge provided by professors or textbooks before trusting it.

  10. #630
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Everyone knows that all generalizations are false.
    I'm thinking it's more accurate to say "Te (always already) knows that all generalizations are false (and is okay with that)"; whilst Ti might logically know 'all generalizations are false', but feel compelled nonetheless to immediately explain why a generalization feels false the moment that generalization is released into the world, and it causes a bit of anxiety to not be able to do that. Just like it causes Fi anxiety to not be able to stop everything and sort out some tiny detail that seems (to Fe) like it would just sort itself out if Fi would let things move forward.

    It isn't that Je doesn't care about 'the truth' or the best conclusion- but Je just takes for granted that starting points are necessarily going to be wrong. Granted, it is definitely worthwhile to put effort into making the starting point as correct as possible (and Pi and Ji are going to have seriously, seriously different opinions about what's reasonable in this regard), but I think that introverted perception always already knows that the starting point is not going to be correct. You can't just decide "truth" or "the best way to do something"- you need to put forth the proposition and then see if it keeps being true/pay attention to how to tweak it from there. Whereas introverted judging wants to prioritize a priori logic, and feels anxious (and oppressed) by letting anything go forward that might not be 100% OMG correct.

    And what I find interesting is that Je dom/aux- in spite of using Pi over Ji- is still susceptible to the anxiety of whatever Ji is in tert/inf position. For example, it's hard for me to read that list highlander reposted without finding it offensive. (Lol?) Because it's so wrong in spots. And I think it's key to learn that the kind of extraverted judging that we don't personally prefer isn't actually trying to oppress us or make us think/feel something that's 'clearly' flawed- it's just more capable of taking for granted that the starting point is going to be wrong, and that's okay because starting points are practically always going to be at least a little bit wrong. Ji tends to see the 'starting point' as a proposed 'end point' though, and feels pressure (that the Je'er isn't intending, and likely doesn't even realize they're causing) to 'go along' with something flawed (as if there's an expectation to continue to adhere to the flawed application).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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