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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So, as I read TG's ENFP thread, the same issue came up of me observing and responding to an Fe user-as though they were an Fi user-via my own self projection. Ie I subconsciously assume when others make emo displays-they are doing so for the reason an ENFP would.

    Perhaps are you guys experiencing something similar? For instance if an INFJ was display the intensity of emotion that is pretty typical for an ENFP-the implication would be that the INFJ would be totally off the charts nuts-thus set of every Fe alarm you have with respect to standards of emotional behavior?

    It seems reasonable that the Fe user might partially screen those around them for folks who exhibit "emotionally moderate" behavior, flag those who dont as problems, and then avoid those who do not as they seem unstable. Never understanding they misapplied their internal standards onto a different type of person who doesnt fit in those standards.

    This isnt an issue at all in one's personal life, as it makes sense to find others who one can be comfortable with, but I have seen these sorts of misunderstandings in my workplace result in exclusion that ended up resulting in loss of valuable input.
    Orobas, I thought this was very insightful.

    I think we all project.* In other words, we all start our understanding of another person by assuming others behave as if they (in terms of MBTI / cognitive functions) have the same agendas that we have.

    In other words, the power of these forums can be to realize what agenda one's own cognitive functions are serving... and what agenda is being served by other people's cognitive functions.

    Real self-actualization, at least as it seems to me, is to be aware of these cognitive function dynamics and appropriately ascribe motive NOT based on one's own motive, but instead based on the motives of that person's cognitive functions.

    Specifically, in relation to your example of an INFJ / Fe-user who judges the highly emotive behavior of the ENFP / Fi-user as indicating that person as "nutso", this has happened to me in real life. I had an INFJ completely misinterpret my behavior because he was judging it from his perspective as an Fe-user. This was certainly his right... but the cost he paid was that he missed out on what could have been a wonderful friendship. He didn't understand that my willingness to express my innermost feelings wasn't evidence that I was crazy. Instead, it was a normal byproduct of my Auxiliary Fi and my Extroversion. <Sigh.>

    *From Wikipedia: "Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies their own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings."
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #572
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ yes it does - Te says "What can I do with the information I have to move forward?" I think Fe says "What can I do with the people I have to move forward?" ... something like that. It's a "majority rules / most of the time this works" scenario. The difficulty is that people are subjective and information is objective. To Fi users, trying to be objective about something objective (Te) is I think perceived as logical and less threatening than trying to be objective about something subjective (Fe) ... ie, people are so unique how can global rules apply in all situations?

    Extrapolating, I think Ti users see ideas as uniquely as I see feelings. This has nothing to do with caring or not caring on either side btw ... it has to do more with the usage of raw materials.
    I'm kind of thinking that Te prefers a narrower range of ideas in the way that Fe prefers a narrower range of emotions. Yes, for sure I think that Ti users see ideas as uniquely as you see feelings. I might decide to put a range of different shades of emotion in one box all labelled "sad", even though I recognized there were varying shades and degrees, while a Fi user would see their meanings and purposes differently enough that they would all need their own box. I think it is maybe the same for Te users with ideas. They might place several ideas all in one general box, feeling that while they are distinctions, they are similar enough to belong together and be tretaed as one basic category, while the Ti user sees them as all having fundamental distinctions that make it impossible to group them together and treat them in the same manner.

  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Orobas, I think you are probably right - we both tend to project what that kind of emotional state would mean onto other people.

    For me, I don't like being around people with wildly fluctuating emotions on a regular basis, simply because it keeps giving me an overload of ever changing input that I have to constantly process. After awhile it feels like the Boy That Cried Wolf, even though I know that the person is sincere. I want to make people feel that I take their problems seriously and also devote time to finding the best possible solution. Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution. It takes up attention that I could be applying in other areas if my efforts aren't really going to fix anything anyhow. It also makes me feel uncertain and uncomfortable because there's no way I can predict what will happen next!

    I agree with you though that in the workplace, this view can cause problems. I have seen even on here that ENFPs have a lot of valuable contributions to offer and are strong in areas which I am not. I think what I'm not sure of is how to take their feelings seriously and not discount them, while still seeing an emo rant for what it is and not feeling the need to rearrange everything immediately. How do you distinguish between what is just blowing off steam and what is something really important? I tend to only express things if I really need to vent enough so that I can sort out what isn't useful important from what is (which I usually can only do by the feedback I receive back) and come to a solution on my own, or if I am truly upset and I need someone else's help to change the situation.
    Wow, Fidelia! This really helped me understand a lot about Fe and how Fi expressed might feel for an INFJ / Fe-user. Specifically, it reminds me of my aforementioned INFJ who decided I was "nutso" because he completely misinterpreted my behavior. It never occurred to me that anyone... especially an INFJ that can handle intense emotions... wouldn't like emotional surprises. And that is what I'm getting from you here (and in other of your writings) that INFJs dislike emotional surprises / volatility. Oy vay! I think about this INFJ who decided I was nutso and poor, poor guy. I did throw more than one emotional surprise at him in the beginning. :blushing:

    I also thought it very interesting when you talked about how you feel an obligation to deal with the emotional distress being expressed around you. This seems to me to be Fe's strong suit... but not something it shares in common with Fi. From my ENFP perspective, my Te can be exhausted in very similar ways by Ti users. I see a clear a logical way out of whatever problem is being discussed and it can become exhausting when my conversation partner just wants to vent and isn't really interested in fixing / Te dealing with the problem.

    As far as how you, as an INFJ / Fe-user, can recognize the difference between an ENFP / Fi-user venting and when your Fe needs to go into action, well.... I'm not sure really. Except maybe just to ask. Perhaps you could bluntly ask the venting party if they are just venting or if they want you to propose a solution. Then you can take your cue from their response.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #574
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    So in a similar way to when Ti users vent to Te users and they wonder what we want them to do? Alright...noted!

    Yep, emotional surprises are one of the worst things you could throw my way, followed by a lack of contexualizing information. Both just about kill me. I'll tolerate it for awhile, but after a bit I end up distancing myself because I just can't handle the overload. Ni in particular offers a million offshoots from each possibility that we consider (kind of like that avatar someone had of the hand with hands coming out of each finger to infinity). It just becomes so overwhelming that I've got to put a stop to it out of self-defense or I'd go crazy. I also hate the very instable feeling of not knowing how to prepare for what might be thrown at me next. If I even have an idea of what range of stuff COULD be coming my way, I tend to be much more okay with it because it is not a completely foreign commodity and I'm not as overwhelmed by it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm wondering, if Fe has a narrow range of emotion that it prefers, does Te have something analogous to that which serves to keep there from being an overload of information to constantly be processed and reassessed?
    Hmmm.... This is interesting to me. While I think that Uumlau is right that Ni can serve to limit information, this doesn't apply to non-Ni users like me. I've noticed that I throttle incoming information sometimes as well. I will carefully limit my initial reading of posts on this forum until I've got an answer percolating that I feel like I want to post. Only after I have the basic concept for my response in mind can I read all the posts in more detail.

    By this point, I'm not afraid to take the plunge into the flotsam and jetsam of information because I have a conceptual framework that helps me sort through things and not feel overloaded by new information. I don't know if this makes sense. I don't feel like I'm articulating it very well but this is the first time I've ever tried to publicly articulate the way this process feels for me.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #576
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    So it IS narrowing down of ideas (see my response to PB a little earlier) until more can be absorbed, much like Fe does with emotional range?

  7. #577

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I just was thinking over the parallel that you drew and I noticed another similarity. When you(?) said a few posts back that you need to know that something is true about 80% of the time, I found myself protesting inwardly that that is not nearly enough! However, as I think about how I use Fe, I think I am pragmatic that way too and tend to believe that not every situation is going to be entirely optimal for every person, so if I can make sure that a high majority of people (say 80%) are happy, or even if I observe something that holds true with people the majority of the time, I tend to build from there.

    Interesting!
    Does it seem reasonable that you might forge an Fe generality that is true 80% of the time but use Ti to fine tune to the particular person in front of you via active listening and questioning to understand their motives better?

    I, for certain, forge 80% true Te generalities, then use Fi to fine tune to the individual...But if you dont use Fi, I can see why just hearing the Te generality alone could be very worrisome. It was very useful to hear the external perspective on this as it wasnt something I had put though into before.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah I agree that Fe and Te have a lot to do with how we order the world around us. Without them, we would live in a world of theory and never get anything done. I am very grateful to all of you for being willing to give me a peak into your inner world, because it does really help me much better understand the reasoning and process that goes into decision making for other people.
    To me it seems as though we have two ways of controlling the external world-Fe or Te-which operate to very different goals. It feels a bit like a metaphorical Tower of Babel as society seems to be communicating at cross purposes-thus minimizing both harmony and efficiency. So much wasted time and unhappiness by mixing these two systems..for what advantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm wondering, if Fe has a narrow range of emotion that it prefers, does Te have something analogous to that which serves to keep there from being an overload of information to constantly be processed and reassessed?
    Hehehe, oh I do love the INTJ....but this quote is a pretty awesome representative example:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Most executives, for example, want a clear report that they can read within a few minutes and understand their options and make a decision - they don't want all the data, nuances and observations that were synthesized into the report, because it's your job to do the thinking and synthesis. If you add in all the qualifiers and nuances and raw data, you're basically telling them to spend all the time you just spent - if not more - studying the issue and make a decision for themselves, at which point they're wondering why they even hired you.

    So-to answer Fidelia's question-Te doesnt seem to need all of the interlinking pieces like Ti does-just outcomes? Te doesnt care about the middle stuff-unless there is a reason to dig down into it due to some problem-it appears to be exactly as Uumlau states.

    My Te is much worse than a Te dom or aux, in that is simply a tool-big giant boxes basically. When I read emails I seek the main points and skip most of the text. In reports I skip to the conclusions. In scientific papers, I skip the data and go to the summary. Then-if needed-I go back to the details.

    This drives my ENTP best friend INSANE. She says Te users are lazy, sloppy, and half ass everything and have no appreciation for the system or processes-including INTJs.

    I suspect Te is like Fe....if Fe is "emo moderate"-perhaps that means Fe seeks emo that has been processed before being displayed. So ,symmetrically, Te would seek information that had been processed, thus a display of raw Ti seems overwhelming and inappropriate?

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I want to make people feel that I take their problems seriously and also devote time to finding the best possible solution. Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution. It takes up attention that I could be applying in other areas if my efforts aren't really going to fix anything anyhow. It also makes me feel uncertain and uncomfortable because there's no way I can predict what will happen next!
    Fidelia, when I read this, I immediately thought about what Vicki Jo Varner said about Directive versus Informative Communication Styles on INFJ.com. Per Ms. Varner (INFJ extraordinaire), INFJs and ENFJs engage in a Directing (as opposed to Informing) communication style.

    ...the directing style of communication [used by INFJs and ENFJs] has a task/time focus, while the informing style [used by INFPs and ENFPs] has a process/motivation focus. The intent of directing is to give structure; direct. The intent of informing is to evoke, draw forth, inspire, seek input.

    ...for people with informing preferences (like INFPs), it's as if people are just a leetle bit more important than Task. And for people with directing preferences (like INFJ), it's as if Task is a leetle bit more important than people. It's as if one concern is operating in the foreground, and the other is operating in the background. So NFJs -- who do care very much about people -- sometimes may seem insensitive when Task is looming and they feel pressured to accomplish a goal. And NFPs may not care enough about Task to suit NFJs. (It is impossible to have equal concern about both at once -- one must take primacy.) from INFJ.com
    There's a great commentary on the above communication differences (which could possibly be no more than Fi versus Fe differences) by an INFJ who is married to an ENFP. You can read what she wrote here: http://www.infjorinfp.com/docs/DIfromINFJ.htm. The salient point is that she has a hard time differentiating extraverted venting from legitimate requests for help.

    (How very informative communication style for me to share this with you without having a specific goal in mind other than to connect with you on these points.)
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #579

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So it IS narrowing down of ideas (see my response to PB a little earlier) until more can be absorbed, much like Fe does with emotional range?
    I can rapidly feel my Te bucket overflow with an ENTP-after about the fourth or fifth Ti connection, I cant figure out why we are diving deeper and my eyes glaze over. (of course Te doms/auxs would do better) Is it narrowing of ideas-or hitting the high points of ideas-like riding on the ocean and catching the top of each wave without having to dive down into the trough?

    Or perhaps we are so busy using an extroverted function in the world-that we can only internalize a small amount of the alternative, foriegn Ji before our own minds start generating gibberish? I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Te doesnt seem to need all of the interlinking pieces like Ti does-just outcomes? Te doesnt care about the middle stuff-unless there is a reason to dig down into it due to some problem-it appears to be exactly as Uumlau states...My Te is ...simply a tool-big giant boxes basically. When I read emails I seek the main points and skip most of the text. In reports I skip to the conclusions. In scientific papers, I skip the data and go to the summary. Then-if needed-I go back to the details.

    This drives my ENTP best friend INSANE. She says Te users are lazy, sloppy, and half ass everything and have no appreciation for the system or processes-including INTJs.

    I suspect Te is like Fe....if Fe is "emo moderate"-perhaps that means Fe seeks emo that has been processed before being displayed. So ,symmetrically, Te would seek information that had been processed, thus a display of raw Ti seems overwhelming and inappropriate?
    Orobas, I loved this. So true. So true. I do the exact same thing by skipping to the main concepts in a book, report, or email. Good Lord! It's a wonder anyone is my friend. Like EVAH!

    But Te does have some advantages. As Uumlau pointed out, it can cut the wheat from the chaff and get to the important points without being bogged down in the subtleties. And, if Fe is similarly utilitarian then thank God for it!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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