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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #561

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    As in a narrower range of emotional states? If that's what you're saying, I think I would agree. I was discussing with a Fe dom the other day about how we both tended to prefer people who seemed emotionally moderate - not too much at the end of either spectrum.
    So, as I read TG's ENFP thread, the same issue came up of me observing and responding to an Fe user-as though they were an Fi user-via my own self projection. Ie I subconsciously assume when others make emo displays-they are doing so for the reason an ENFP would.

    Perhaps are you guys experiencing something similar? For instance if an INFJ was display the intensity of emotion that is pretty typical for an ENFP-the implication would be that the INFJ would be totally off the charts nuts-thus set of every Fe alarm you have with respect to standards of emotional behavior?

    It seems reasonable that the Fe user might partially screen those around them for folks who exhibit "emotionally moderate" behavior, flag those who dont as problems, and then avoid those who do not as they seem unstable. Never understanding they misapplied their internal standards onto a different type of person who doesnt fit in those standards.

    This isnt an issue at all in one's personal life, as it makes sense to find others who one can be comfortable with, but I have seen these sorts of misunderstandings in my workplace result in exclusion that ended up resulting in loss of valuable input.

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Whoa. It's taken me about a week to sort through this entire thread. I had shamefully missed this sub-forum until I came across this thread... And what an interesting thread it is. And, I have now added this sub-forum to my regular skulking activities so watch out TypologyCentral!


    What I've Learned about Fe from my Te

    Lessons to be Learned from Te. I've spent a lot of time over the past couple of months thinking about the limits of my Tertiary Te which runs very strong in me. In fact, I have always taken personal pride in my ability to wield my Tertiary Te with more finesse than the average Tertiary Te user. I'm still working out the details in my head, but it definitely seems that there are tremendously powerful analogies between the "limits" of Te and the "limits" of Fe.

    I've come to appreciate that in order for my Te to do what it does best which is get things organized and done in a logical, often sequential manner, it sacrifices the subtlety and nuance that Ti is so good at perceiving. I've also learned that Ti often feels hostile to the blunt, seemingly one-dimensional assessments that Te makes in the name of <insert the task trying to be accomplished here>. And it does seem that you could make the same assessment about Fe versus Fi if you just reread the above sentence and substitute Fe for Te and Fi for Ti.

    Suggestions for Fe Users

    How Fe Might Better Communicate with Fi. I've incorporated my new understanding of the limits of my Te into my presentational style by trying to be more careful to not share my Te observations so bluntly. Now I work hard to make sure I allow for the murky subtleties of Ti by saying things like, "Well, there is no pat answer, but I think in this situation..." and have found this works very well in bypassing Ti's hostility to Te.

    I share my story of realizing the limits of Te because I think it might shed some light on what might be a more Fi-friendly approach for Fe-users. Fe seems very one-dimensional to Fi. And, perhaps Fe, much like Te, sacrifices shades of gray in the name of black and white pronouncements that serve it's agenda which in Fe's case is creating smooth interpersonal relations in a straightforward manner.

    Your thoughts/feedback are appreciate.
    I would agree with this assessment.

    Te users tend to think in terms of simple, declarative statements. Interestingly, one reason I tend to write in simple, declarative statements is not just because of Te, but because I was taught that it was bad form [in writing] to include qualifiers that don't actually add any information. For example, if one is writing an essay that is obviously an opinion piece, the words "I think" are entirely extraneous and add no information whatsoever. Similarly, hedge words like "might" and "may" and "mostly" and "appears" and so on were similarly regarded as padding to make word-counts add up to the desired 1000 or whatever.

    So, I learned to state things directly, that if someone had a different opinion, that one could similarly disagree in a direct manner. This is how Te just works.

    But there is a large segment of the population that is remarkably offended (or even intimidated) by the sheer certainty of such diction. No one can know the truth so well. Thus such people contrariwise require the hedge words, not unlike requiring news reporters to talk about an "alleged" crime or criminal, if there has been no conviction. Phrases such as "I think" and "it might be the case that", and so on, turn out to be needed to allay such offense from the outset, that the actual core idea may be communicated.

    Thus here, in a typology forum, I end up saying that a type "tends to do thus and such," rather than just "does thus and such." I would rather use the latter, since it is more clear to my ears, and the "tends to" with regard to typology should be assumed, in my opinion - it is typology, after all, so it's all about "tends to" and belaboring that it is only tendencies and not precise descriptions feels like a waste of verbiage to me. Yet, I find I waste more verbiage arguing language with people who would rather argue about how imprecise my wording is than about the idea I stated, so I add the damn verbiage and the fussing goes away.

    I should note that the language to use does depend on the environment in which one is communicating. In business messages, my language becomes much more direct and simplified. Most executives, for example, want a clear report that they can read within a few minutes and understand their options and make a decision - they don't want all the data, nuances and observations that were synthesized into the report, because it's your job to do the thinking and synthesis. If you add in all the qualifiers and nuances and raw data, you're basically telling them to spend all the time you just spent - if not more - studying the issue and make a decision for themselves, at which point they're wondering why they even hired you.

    I've spent much time helping friends in various workplaces rephrase their emails to drop the extraneous info, whether it be logical details that no non-technical person could decipher, or emo details about how difficult one's job is, or hedge words that sound like one is trying to weasel out of one's responsibilities, or whatever. The rule of thumb I gave all of them was to stick to the facts without using technical jargon, and if you need a decision from someone, give a bullet-pointed list of options and their consequences, ranging from doing nothing to the most elaborate and ideal fix.

    In a typology forum, however, adding the qualifiers and hedge words for discussing ideas goes a long way. People are just sharing ideas, here, not making executive decisions. It does no harm to add a few extra words that make sure everyone hears one's idea, and not how one said it wrong.

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So, as I read TG's ENFP thread, the same issue came up of me observing and responding to an Fe user-as though they were an Fi user-via my own self projection. Ie I subconsciously assume when others make emo displays-they are doing so for the reason an ENFP would.

    Perhaps are you guys experiencing something similar? For instance if an INFJ was display the intensity of emotion that is pretty typical for an ENFP-the implication would be that the INFJ would be totally off the charts nuts-thus set of every Fe alarm you have with respect to standards of emotional behavior?

    It seems reasonable that the Fe user might partially screen those around them for folks who exhibit "emotionally moderate" behavior, flag those who dont as problems, and then avoid those who do not as they seem unstable. Never understanding they misapplied their internal standards onto a different type of person who doesnt fit in those standards.

    This isnt an issue at all in one's personal life, as it makes sense to find others who one can be comfortable with, but I have seen these sorts of misunderstandings in my workplace result in exclusion that ended up resulting in loss of valuable input.
    I have had this happen alot with Fi mis-reading me, I can tell you that I have never felt understood by an ENFP or anyone that tries to read into the "why". People are better off piecing things together with me, I also prefer this method of piecing things together as its more concrete and reading into things for me is no different then guessing.

    I also have never really cared if someone understands me until recently simply because lack of it causes to many problems.

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Orobas, I think you are probably right - we both tend to project what that kind of emotional state would mean onto other people.

    For me, I don't like being around people with wildly fluctuating emotions on a regular basis, simply because it keeps giving me an overload of ever changing input that I have to constantly process. After awhile it feels like the Boy That Cried Wolf, even though I know that the person is sincere. I want to make people feel that I take their problems seriously and also devote time to finding the best possible solution. Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution. It takes up attention that I could be applying in other areas if my efforts aren't really going to fix anything anyhow. It also makes me feel uncertain and uncomfortable because there's no way I can predict what will happen next!

    I agree with you though that in the workplace, this view can cause problems. I have seen even on here that ENFPs have a lot of valuable contributions to offer and are strong in areas which I am not. I think what I'm not sure of is how to take their feelings seriously and not discount them, while still seeing an emo rant for what it is and not feeling the need to rearrange everything immediately. How do you distinguish between what is just blowing off steam and what is something really important? I tend to only express things if I really need to vent enough so that I can sort out what isn't useful important from what is (which I usually can only do by the feedback I receive back) and come to a solution on my own, or if I am truly upset and I need someone else's help to change the situation.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Orobas, I think you are probably right - we both tend to project what that kind of emotional state would mean onto other people.

    For me, I don't like being around people with wildly fluctuating emotions on a regular basis, simply because it keeps giving me an overload of ever changing input that I have to constantly process. After awhile it feels like the Boy That Cried Wolf, even though I know that the person is sincere. I want to make people feel that I take their problems seriously and also devote time to finding the best possible solution. Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution. It takes up attention that I could be applying in other areas if my efforts aren't really going to fix anything anyhow. It also makes me feel uncertain and uncomfortable because there's no way I can predict what will happen next!

    I agree with you though that in the workplace, this view can cause problems. I have seen even on here that ENFPs have a lot of valuable contributions to offer and are strong in areas which I am not. I think what I'm not sure of is how to take their feelings seriously and not discount them, while still seeing an emo rant for what it is and not feeling the need to rearrange everything immediately. How do you distinguish between what is just blowing off steam and what is something really important? I tend to only express things if I really need to vent enough so that I can sort out what isn't useful important from what is (which I usually can only do by the feedback I receive back) and come to a solution on my own, or if I am truly upset and I need someone else's help to change the situation.
    To me its just a judgement call. Look at that persons life and figure out what is big and what is little in the grand scheme of things. One thing with Te and Fi with my son is that a huge part of things is rationalizing negative into positive. Alot of the time this comes out "well atleast XYZ". I dont get this frame of thought. Its like constantly settling, stuck is when they dont do this though and can get hung up on the little things. Have no clue where I am going with this...just my 2 cents with Fi and Te. I learn alot about Fi and Te with my son. I can see what I coin as the cognitive functions much better. Its like they are much more raw and less convoluted. Especially as people learn about what it is other people do and get stuck in ways of interacting and end up avoiding, rerouting, hiding, etc. Its kinda like bluntness in regards to cognitive functions.

  6. #566

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Orobas, I think you are probably right - we both tend to project what that kind of emotional state would mean onto other people.

    For me, I don't like being around people with wildly fluctuating emotions on a regular basis, simply because it keeps giving me an overload of ever changing input that I have to constantly process. After awhile it feels like the Boy That Cried Wolf, even though I know that the person is sincere. I want to make people feel that I take their problems seriously and also devote time to finding the best possible solution. Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution. It takes up attention that I could be applying in other areas if my efforts aren't really going to fix anything anyhow. It also makes me feel uncertain and uncomfortable because there's no way I can predict what will happen next!
    Oh wow, this is interesting-as always the parallel exists huh?-I find I can become very frustrated with EXTPs, even ones I really like when I need to get tasks done.

    This-"Unfortunately, with constantly shifting data, that affects a lot of other people (Fe perspective) and so I am constantly having to rearrange everything for one person's fluctuations to find that solution." is exactly how runaway Ti can be when I have a Te list of things I am trying to accomplish. Just replace Fe perspective with Te perspective. I know the Ti ideas are of value...but they dont have a destination-a goal-they keep changing and each time they change, it makes me have to change all of my Te long term plans. It is emotionally exhausting, as Te takes work for me. And yeah, I cant predict what will happen next so I feel very anxious and worried-everything keeps changing. Fi keeps yelling at me that we are in "danger" because I cant identify a safe plan forward for the team. If this lasts long enough I totally loose trust in the Ti users-as they cant be held at their word. (This is a huge insight for me...WOW.ewww. ekkkk...shit)

    Would you agree that Te and Fe are how we respectively order the world around us? That they are the planning functions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree with you though that in the workplace, this view can cause problems. I have seen even on here that ENFPs have a lot of valuable contributions to offer and are strong in areas which I am not. I think what I'm not sure of is how to take their feelings seriously and not discount them, while still seeing an emo rant for what it is and not feeling the need to rearrange everything immediately. How do you distinguish between what is just blowing off steam and what is something really important? I tend to only express things if I really need to vent enough so that I can sort out what isn't useful important from what is (which I usually can only do by the feedback I receive back) and come to a solution on my own, or if I am truly upset and I need someone else's help to change the situation.
    Most enfps in the workplace have matured enough not to allow you to see the emo displays. They can seem more animated or talk more loudly, and even bitch a lot, but tend to not share pure emo dumps.

    Funny, I often will make NiTi INFJs online angry, but IRL the NeTe ENFPs and NiTi INFJs actually get along very well from what I have seen. Neither of us is openly emotive, but we both take a firm stance and have high expectations of those around us. We are also finely tuned into what is best for the group. So we see each other in pain and comfort each other-the unspoken nonverbal cues are so essential in allowing each half to adapt behavior in the moment I suspect. Thus whatever emo I display-they seek to comfort me, thus it must seem emo moderate.

    EXTPs though seem to have a more rudimentary tert Fe-but are far more sensitive and less forgiving of minute emo fluctuations in Fi. They really like good Fi, but no matter how hard I try and be calm and masklike-they can see the sad Fi-and they retreat. I suspect their window of "emo moderation" is much smaller than Fe doms or auxs oddly. My ENTP friend says that I can make his stomach fall through the floor-it is almost painful for him to be around me if I am delivering a fairly stern Te motivated by Fi.

    Fe doms and auxs may fall the other way-and this is where I have seen exclusion be the worst-they will exclude strong Te users. I suspect if you apply Fe standards of behavior to a strong Te user, it translates as the rudest, power hungry, nastiest Ti/Fe user ever-rather than a Te user just being blunt. Because it seems so very rude, they will not invite them to future meetings-not understanding they applied the wrong standard of behavior.

  7. #567
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I just was thinking over the parallel that you drew and I noticed another similarity. When you(?) said a few posts back that you need to know that something is true about 80% of the time, I found myself protesting inwardly that that is not nearly enough! However, as I think about how I use Fe, I think I am pragmatic that way too and tend to believe that not every situation is going to be entirely optimal for every person, so if I can make sure that a high majority of people (say 80%) are happy, or even if I observe something that holds true with people the majority of the time, I tend to build from there.

    Interesting!

    Yeah I agree that Fe and Te have a lot to do with how we order the world around us. Without them, we would live in a world of theory and never get anything done. I am very grateful to all of you for being willing to give me a peak into your inner world, because it does really help me much better understand the reasoning and process that goes into decision making for other people.

    I'm wondering, if Fe has a narrow range of emotion that it prefers, does Te have something analogous to that which serves to keep there from being an overload of information to constantly be processed and reassessed?

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm wondering, if Fe has a narrow range of emotion that it prefers, does Te have something analogous to that which serves to keep there from being an overload of information to constantly be processed and reassessed?
    Yes. I would call it "Ni."

    More seriously, I don't think it's about "overload" so much as the "top down" nature of the extroverted judging functions. FIRST, we get the main bullet points, THEN when we identify an important bullet point, we go into detail. Every bullet point that reads like the last waste-of-time we accidentally spent time on is judged as a waste of time. I suspect that when Fe/Ti ends up trying to process Fi and turns up no good results, that is determined to be a waste of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I just was thinking over the parallel that you drew and I noticed another similarity. When you(?) said a few posts back that you need to know that something is true about 80% of the time, I found myself protesting inwardly that that is not nearly enough! However, as I think about how I use Fe, I think I am pragmatic that way too and tend to believe that not every situation is going to be entirely optimal for every person, so if I can make sure that a high majority of people (say 80%) are happy, or even if I observe something that holds true with people the majority of the time, I tend to build from there.

    Interesting!

    Yeah I agree that Fe and Te have a lot to do with how we order the world around us. Without them, we would live in a world of theory and never get anything done. I am very grateful to all of you for being willing to give me a peak into your inner world, because it does really help me much better understand the reasoning and process that goes into decision making for other people.

    I'm wondering, if Fe has a narrow range of emotion that it prefers, does Te have something analogous to that which serves to keep there from being an overload of information to constantly be processed and reassessed?
    Restricted thought in regard to feelings...I see it big time all around me. Those that are Fi and dont are different to me, they are special. These are really the only Fi people I could ever be in a relationship with. I dont like that portion of Te at all, but I understand it.

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    ^ yes it does - Te says "What can I do with the information I have to move forward?" I think Fe says "What can I do with the people I have to move forward?" ... something like that. It's a "majority rules / most of the time this works" scenario. The difficulty is that people are subjective and information is objective. To Fi users, trying to be objective about something objective (Te) is I think perceived as logical and less threatening than trying to be objective about something subjective (Fe) ... ie, people are so unique how can global rules apply in all situations?

    Extrapolating, I think Ti users see ideas as uniquely as I see feelings. This has nothing to do with caring or not caring on either side btw ... it has to do more with the usage of raw materials.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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