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  1. #531
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Do you mean by worldview that we tend to have very strong philosophical and/or political and/or spiritual opinions?

    The thing is, though, as I've grown older I've become more politically moderate, less non-religious spiritual and more de facto atheist (agnostic) and less confrontational with other people. So I've changed. It's not like I have some concrete world view I developed by age 18 and go around telling people they're evil if they don't fit into it. No offense to SJs, but that really does sound more like an SFJ than an ENFP.

    ENFPs are pretty strongly opinionated, though. I think anyone with Fi is going to have really strong gut-level feelings about certain things. I know that I do.
    No I just mean worldview as in your view of people which lead to strong philosophical, political, or spiritual opinions.

    All I see is grey. It would be like seeing zombies instead of dead or alive people Ghosts are to dead to be a grey area, they are like dark grey if black is dead and white is alive, though they look white so people fear the fact that there alive and present and see zombies as dark grey because they are scary...rambling. I dont know what light grey is, maybe its the people who dont really fit into MBTI that are halfway between living and zombie. Yes I am bored, have short timers syndrome and ready for the day to end so I can start my vacation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    No I just mean worldview as in your view of people which lead to strong philosophical, political, or spiritual opinions.

    All I see is grey. It would be like seeing zombies instead of dead or alive people Ghosts are to dead to be a grey area, they are like dark grey if black is dead and white is alive, though they look white so people fear the fact that there alive and present and see zombies as dark grey because they are scary...rambling. I dont know what light grey is, maybe its the people who dont really fit into MBTI that are halfway between living and zombie. Yes I am bored, have short timers syndrome and ready for the day to end so I can start my vacation.
    I sometimes wonder if SPs are the least likely of all types to have strong political opinions. Apparently ISFPs, at least, are less openly opinionated or argumentative with their Fi than both NFP types.

    I don't think it comes from personal butthurt, though. If anything I've realized as I've gotten older more and more that people tend to do things for a variety of reasons, usually involving their personal pain or life experience (and this includes my ESFP mother...so it's not like SPs don't act badly out of personal butthurt, themselves) than because they are "bad" people or that they mean to be "mean." In fact, I often feel like I'm lecturing INFPs and sometimes even FJs on this site about how they label people as bad, mean, or inappropriate instead of viewing their behavior in a wider and more flexible context. This is probably just being an Ne dom. Dunno.

    However, yes, I have standards and I have strong feelings and will always have strong opinions about certain things, even if I understand that the motives behind certain behaviors aren't necessarily malicious.

    This is probably an ENFP trait, and it's why we're called "The Champions," I'm sure...because we Champion ideas and people we feel strongly about.

  3. #533
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So part of the challenge of communicating ideas, especially complex ideas, especially abstract ideas that cannot be stated in concrete terms, is to figure out how to convey the idea such that the proper "resonance" is achieved in the other person. That resonance isn't an exact replication of the original idea. Even when it's a concrete idea, different people will "store" it differently, e.g., Ni storing "meaning" while Si often recalls the exact words. But the idea is conveyed and understood after a fashion.
    Yes, different people will store ideas differently and through their filters won't look like or be exactly like the original, yet, the resonance doesn't have to be "proper" (or the same) from person to person (not at all) to have meaning. Resonance to me is when someone hooks into a truth of some kind and this echoes with others. "I still haven't found, what I'm looking for" ... would resonate with many, many people - for (I can think of) hundreds of reasons. It gives words to a truth, a reality. What that reality looks like is so different from person to person yet the kernel of what's in there is a truth.

    Totally off-topic: I think there's far more to Si than storing the words of a song btw. It stores ... every aspect of context that revolves around that song, the "who, what, why, when and where" ... this data leads to when I last heard the song, what I was wearing that night, and what happened after we got back from the party, and all of the emotions sparkle or slice 'round those memories too. Si takes me to everything that happened, and replaying those memories engages an emotional replay too. It is why, when I surface memories, I feel like I am reliving the emotions almost, just like it was "back then". It's a wise reason sometimes to stay in the "now" ... to just "be".


    The other part of the reason I explicate this is that in order to convey an idea, it isn't enough to just be authentic and express it as one understands it oneself: some people will get it right away, but most won't. One must also listen to the hearts of others and express it in a way that properly resonates in those hearts as well as one's own.
    You know, as much as I hear you and rationally agree with this, I still disagree. Some things are worth being bendy for, others are not. I think Fi people in particular have to learn hard to differentiate between the two, for the world does not run to Fi's preference.

    And finally, in order to properly listen and translate, one eventually needs to be able to hear all of the different versions in their own terms without being repulsed by some element or another. By instantly rejecting some aspect of a message, one actually changes the message one hears into a message very different from the one sent. Ironically, yes, I am on the one hand saying that one should frame the message so that others don't instantly reject it, but on the other hand that one should strive to not instantly reject others' messages: these points are complimentary, however, not contradictory.
    I feel like you are being a bit lecture-y to me in your last couple of posts, but I'm not offended or dwelling on it - just going to briefly address it. If your premise is that I do not already do this (accommodate others and modify how I communicate according to my audience) in my real life, and you think I should, you are starting from the wrong spot; if you think I should be more this way on the forum or in these threads, I am trying to say that I am trying to be more "me" and less "bendy" in order to show other people more of the real "me" and thus more real Fi. I am seeing if this "tool" in my toolbox can work in this instance to communicate what I want to share. Maybe it's not working; maybe it is. But I can't know unless I really push this ... really try this.

    Your message is very contradictory, you see that, no? To purely share one's heart is to not worry about whether what one offers will be accepted or rejected. If you are constantly thinking about how to engage the listener, you can never offer over a true rendition of oneself. Not ever.

    In my mind, there's two reasons why people enjoy certain songs or music:

    1.) The music and lyrics use a tried and true formula to appeal to the masses. For example, pop music is generally constructed, not created. It is formulaic and very ... intentional. It's crafted in such a way you almost cannot help but find it catchy and fun. It sells. People like it. It makes money.

    2.) The performers play or sing from their heart; they are expressing raw what people think and feel and that purity is what resonates with their audience. The honesty of expression. Seeing the true person in there. They offer over a part of themselves.

    Think of all the bands that have an initial success then fade away, never to recapture what success they had in the past. Success is what became most important in many of those cases. They started from position #2, but after the initial success tried to "bottle it" into #1 ... they changed and ceased to offer over something that was from the heart. Thus they lost their audience.

    Anyway, as usual I feel pressed to say this in a way that I am happy with or actually will say what I want it to say, but this is my best go at it for the moment.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You know, as much as I hear you and rationally agree with this, I still disagree. Some things are worth being bendy for, others are not. I think Fi people in particular have to learn hard to differentiate between the two, for the world does not run to Fi's preference.
    Or rather, some truths simply won't resonate until the other perspective bends to accommodate them. Sometimes only time and experience can allow such flexibility in a person, and no matter how much one tries to explain something accommodating the other's perspective, the idea just doesn't fit. It turns into an effort to try and make the other perspective bend, which usually doesn't end well.

    Still, I enjoy trying to figure out how to create a "path" from one idea to another, with a sequence of resonances for others to follow. Maybe I don't get there, but it's how my Ni works, specializing in subjective perspectives. It usually doesn't "work", but I always learn something from doing so.

    I feel like you are being a bit lecture-y to me in your last couple of posts, but I'm not offended or dwelling on it - just going to briefly address it. If your premise is that I do not already do this (accommodate others and modify how I communicate according to my audience) in my real life, and you think I should, you are starting from the wrong premise; if you think I should be more this way on the forum or in these threads, I am trying to say that I am trying to be more "me" and less "bendy" in order to show other people more of the real "me" and thus more real Fi. I am seeing if this "tool" in my toolbox can work in this instance to communicate what I want to share. Maybe it's not working; maybe it is. But I can't know unless I really push this ... really try this.
    I know very well that you're capable of adapting to others' perspectives. When I reply, however, I try to keep things in a language that other posters will readily comprehend, and to one well-versed in Fi, I'm sure it sounds quite pedantic and awkward.

    Your message is very contradictory, you see that, no? To purely share one's heart is to not worry about whether what one offers will be accepted or rejected. If you are constantly thinking about how to engage the listener, you can never offer over a true rendition of oneself. Not ever.
    I understand this better than you might think. I don't believe it is contradictory, however.

    I suspect there might be some Ni vs Si perspective differences between us, here. I don't feel like I'm not being "true to myself" when I bend my perspective. Perhaps, as an Ni dom, bending my perspective is being true to myself, since it is natural as breathing.

    On the Fi-side, though, I totally get the need to just be able to say what one feels without having to be self-conscious about it, and it is extremely refreshing to be able to do so. I've only found it in very particular connections with very particular people, and never with people in general in any venue.


    In my mind, there's two reasons why people enjoy certain songs or music:

    1.) The music and lyrics use a tried and true formula to appeal to the masses. For example, pop music is generally constructed, not created. It is formulaic and very ... intentional. It's crafted in such a way you almost cannot help but find it catchy and fun. It sells. People like it. It makes money.

    2.) The performers play or sing from their heart; they are expressing raw what people think and feel and that purity is what resonates with their audience. The honesty of expression. Seeing the true person in there. They offer over a part of themselves.

    Think of all the bands that have an initial success then fade away, never to recapture what success they had in the past. Success is what became most important in many of those cases. They started from position #2, but after the initial success tried to "bottle it" into #1 ... they changed and ceased to offer over something that was from the heart. Thus they lost their audience.

    Anyway, as usual I feel pressed to say this in a way that I am happy with or actually will say what I want it to say, but this is my best go at it for the moment.
    It's interesting that you bring up this metaphor, since I play and improvise music myself (never to anything beyond a very modest degree of commercial success). I suspect you regard (1) as being Si-ish, a very specific formula that has been proven over time to be successful, and (2) as being Fi-ish, being true to oneself. Personally, I apply (1) in a more Ni way, e.g., the expression of each musical idea needs to be suited to the idea as well as to the listener. That if Fi is the inner light, the Ni is my lens, a very flexible lens rather than a specific formula.

    Definitely, if one relies only on (1), whether of the Ni or Si variety, with no evidence of (2), then the music is flat, with no feeling. But ALSO, if one relies only on (2), there is no focus, no form. "From the heart" can fall flat because one lacks the ability to give it any kind of concrete form. When my emotions, my inspiration, are the strongest, I find that I have very little originality or spark. It's as if I cannot find any good way to express what I need to express, the inner light is too intense to resolve into an image for others to see - it is noise without form - even to me.

    It's when I am in a more detached state, able to access both Ni and Fi, as it were, that I can truly be creative and play from my heart. I stop caring that it be exactly right the way I understand it internally, and just let it come out as is, shaping it so that it makes sense "to itself," and becomes an entity apart from me.

  5. #535
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    FYI, everyone: pay attention to the bolded. We are, after all, on a typology forum. To respond to any sort of typological statement with the "but typology does not (or cannot) explain everything" platitude means nothing without an additional explanation of how and why, in whatever particular case, typology is insufficient or limited, beyond just saying that people are unique or whatever other catch-all explanation for dismissing typology first occurs to one's mind. There is no way to prove, one way or another, whether a specific application of typology is true or false; at most, a discussion can shed light on which applications of typology appear to be useful or not so useful.



    A part of what happens with respect to translating between contexts/frames/spaces is that some things don't translate well or at all. Moreover, some information is even extraneous, filler material, patterns of speech or thought that enter the communication, but are not actually relevant to any particular message.

    Here is a song with a very Fi message. I'm going to post three versions of it, here. I believe every version has the core message, but each is in a different frame, with extraneous elements that don't translate.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW88EvEAd0k"]Pop version (Joshua Tree)[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejc8a5wW8QI"]Gospel Version (from Rattle and Hum)[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpgXT2n0YWg"]Salsa Version (Coco Freeman)[/YOUTUBE]

    The core Fi message is along the lines of, "There's something here I need to know/understand/figure-out/discover. I will know what it is when I find it, but beyond that, I cannot say." It is a statement of the nature of faith, that in spite of belief, there is something missing. That in spite of overcoming many challenges, of having known love/desire, knowing both good and evil, it is still missing ... but it is out there to be found.

    Note that in the music I've posted, as good as it is, there are elements that repulse some others, including other Fi users. Heck, an Fi-dom salsa friend of mine doesn't like the salsa version, because she hates pop music turned into salsa, and that makes it not really salsa in her mind. (But, proving her Fi-frame-of-mind, she'll then say, "Oh, yeah, you like this song, so it's OK if you dance it with me.")

    So part of the challenge of communicating ideas, especially complex ideas, especially abstract ideas that cannot be stated in concrete terms, is to figure out how to convey the idea such that the proper "resonance" is achieved in the other person. That resonance isn't an exact replication of the original idea. Even when it's a concrete idea, different people will "store" it differently, e.g., Ni storing "meaning" while Si often recalls the exact words. But the idea is conveyed and understood after a fashion.

    There is another aspect of this resonance: especially in Fi terms, what one will hear in return for one's own song is a very different song. You still hear your own song in there, but now it carries two hearts instead of one. The Joshua Tree version is the original, but someone else heard the rather hidden "gospel" tones of the song, and brought those out: it's the same song, sung by a different heart, emphasizing what that heart heard and resonates, and adding that heart's own characteristic touch. Similarly, the salsa version takes the original and seamlessly adds a salsa beat, a Spanish translation, and some spectacular brass that takes the original question of faith and turns it into a celebration of life.

    Same song, same Fi. Entering new hearts reveals new understandings.

    So part of the reason I explicate this is to give the Fe side of the equation an idea of how Fi interacts in its own terms. Those who identify with Fe (plus Ni) in this thread will most likely find my explanation to resonate more with Ni than Fe.

    The other part of the reason I explicate this is that in order to convey an idea, it isn't enough to just be authentic and express it as one understands it oneself: some people will get it right away, but most won't. One must also listen to the hearts of others and express it in a way that properly resonates in those hearts as well as one's own.

    So back to my heavy metal music analogy, one's own heart might be heavy metal, but perhaps the other heart needs to hear a power ballad version of what you have to say, and not "Highway to Hell" version. No, it's not the "complete truth," but if one evokes enough of the truth, the other can use that to find the rest, or even truths that you don't see, yet.

    And finally, in order to properly listen and translate, one eventually needs to be able to hear all of the different versions in their own terms without being repulsed by some element or another. By instantly rejecting some aspect of a message, one actually changes the message one hears into a message very different from the one sent. Ironically, yes, I am on the one hand saying that one should frame the message so that others don't instantly reject it, but on the other hand that one should strive to not instantly reject others' messages: these points are complimentary, however, not contradictory.
    Uumlau, this was absolutely beautiful. Seriously. Akin to a work of art. What a beautiful, logically coherent, heartfelt expression of what happens when two people communicate... and how we can tailor our messages to reach different people... and how we can tailor our listening based on the communication styles of those around us.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #536
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I sometimes wonder if SPs are the least likely of all types to have strong political opinions. Apparently ISFPs, at least, are less openly opinionated or argumentative with their Fi than both NFP types.

    I don't think it comes from personal butthurt, though. If anything I've realized as I've gotten older more and more that people tend to do things for a variety of reasons, usually involving their personal pain or life experience (and this includes my ESFP mother...so it's not like SPs don't act badly out of personal butthurt, themselves) than because they are "bad" people or that they mean to be "mean." In fact, I often feel like I'm lecturing INFPs and sometimes even FJs on this site about how they label people as bad, mean, or inappropriate instead of viewing their behavior in a wider and more flexible context. This is probably just being an Ne dom. Dunno.

    However, yes, I have standards and I have strong feelings and will always have strong opinions about certain things, even if I understand that the motives behind certain behaviors aren't necessarily malicious.

    This is probably an ENFP trait, and it's why we're called "The Champions," I'm sure...because we Champion ideas and people we feel strongly about.
    Thanks, that helps me shift things around. So what causes butthurt?

  7. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I understand this better than you might think. I don't believe it is contradictory, however.

    I suspect there might be some Ni vs Si perspective differences between us, here. I don't feel like I'm not being "true to myself" when I bend my perspective. Perhaps, as an Ni dom, bending my perspective is being true to myself, since it is natural as breathing.

    On the Fi-side, though, I totally get the need to just be able to say what one feels without having to be self-conscious about it, and it is extremely refreshing to be able to do so. I've only found it in very particular connections with very particular people, and never with people in general in any venue.
    So as long as the perspective doesnt relate to how you feel you will be able to bend it willy-nilly. But what if the perspective affects how you feel? If INTJs speak Ni, then doesnt Fi come out in an Ni manner, and isnt being true to Fi mean you become stubborn to Ni as well? So U, can you infact be as open with Ni as you say you are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Uumlau, this was absolutely beautiful. Seriously. Akin to a work of art. What a beautiful, logically coherent, heartfelt expression of what happens when two people communicate... and how we can tailor our messages to reach different people... and how we can tailor our listening based on the communication styles of those around us.
    ok, I read the bolded you commented on as if words can be shifted to speak to someones heart. Try that when 2 people disagree. Oh wait, he is...wait for it..... Wait, is the perspective shifting or is it just a play on words. You know if you reach a vague subject where people can create their own interpretation of the words, then it is possible for 2 people to reach an agreement, to "get" each other, yet be completely lost.

  9. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I sometimes wonder if SPs are the least likely of all types to have strong political opinions. Apparently ISFPs, at least, are less openly opinionated or argumentative with their Fi than both NFP types.

    I don't think it comes from personal butthurt, though. If anything I've realized as I've gotten older more and more that people tend to do things for a variety of reasons, usually involving their personal pain or life experience (and this includes my ESFP mother...so it's not like SPs don't act badly out of personal butthurt, themselves) than because they are "bad" people or that they mean to be "mean." In fact, I often feel like I'm lecturing INFPs and sometimes even FJs on this site about how they label people as bad, mean, or inappropriate instead of viewing their behavior in a wider and more flexible context. This is probably just being an Ne dom. Dunno.

    However, yes, I have standards and I have strong feelings and will always have strong opinions about certain things, even if I understand that the motives behind certain behaviors aren't necessarily malicious.

    This is probably an ENFP trait, and it's why we're called "The Champions," I'm sure...because we Champion ideas and people we feel strongly about.
    Also I care more about how people treat other people, then I do about politics. Politics is just 2 or more people trying to reach a middle ground on a external topic that affects things in a round about way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To purely share one's heart is to not worry about whether what one offers will be accepted or rejected. If you are constantly thinking about how to engage the listener, you can never offer over a true rendition of oneself. Not ever.
    I'm not sure I'm completely following some of the discussion here but do really like this quote.

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