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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #511

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Do you become Te lazy IRL? Just wondering since on here our(I's) inner world comes out which is our dominant direction. Do you think that in actual interactions tertiary becomes lazy with Es? Like an ENFJs Se becomes lazy and they stop really picking up on things. They fall back more on Fe. Or Te becomes lazy with ENFP in actual real life interactions?
    IRL my ability to use what I perceive to be Te to structure things seems to vary-oddly with my monthly cycle. I may say I can use "more Te" but in reality it may be that when I think Te feels stronger-I am really using less Ne. I dunno. Trying to pin Ne ideas down can be very hard as they ramble on and are constantly in motion-so Te steps in and stabs a pin in them-which given the club like nature-can appear way too absolute and concrete. I couldnt give a damn as, to be honest, I need the pin downed point so that I can make the next Ne leap. However if the goal is to convey an idea, well, total fail as everyone gets pissed because you come across as a know it all.

    There is something interesting about the internet though-people think I am very sweet in real life but rude online. A couple of INTPs were saying on another thread that people think they are really nice online but IRL they are assholes. The INTJs come across as very sweet online but IRL, can seem much more abrupt. I once saw someone say we loose upwards of 70% of the content in textual communication due to loss of nonverbal content..

    standard theory says Tert functions can be used under a lot of stress and be brutal, they can be developed over time and be a tool for the dom-aux functions or they can be developed due to weird influence from the outside world. Being that I am Ne and that I seek to extend the Te structure to the max-I assume that the above three developmental paths apply to each type-however I havent observed enough Fe doms to say yes or no to your question. If I dont see data to back something up-I dont trust the validity of the idea, even if Ne sees connections.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I am gonna have to find a way around this lazy Te function because I do see it IRL a couple times with ENFPs. It has caught me on this board one time in particular. I wont generally put up with lazy Te. The way it comes out is you believe what you want to believe about me. Very few people can get me to try to get them to believe something else, eventually I give up though because I am not gonna force people to believe anything. Over my life as I become quieter and quieter it has turned into a huge huge key I use to determine if someone knows me or not. I will let them run off in there own direction and it helps me understand who they are. That should change now that I am changing my life to get past what has lead up to me being this introverted.
    I would say this is the ENFP projecting their worldview upon you. This is a common enfp thing to do-"I know how you feel", when in reality to try and understand what an Fe user feels is doomed to fail. Be aware you are setting a trap though-by not contridicting what the enfp says in the moment, -it speaks to your agreement. Thus the enfp will move forward assuming the initial foundation was true. You are expecting them to be able to infer what is going on in your head-your motives. It isnt what we do.

    Now if you correct the enfp-and they keep insisting, well that is a bit rude of them-there is something a little funny going on with respect to what they are hearing. As Marm said-when young we can be more convinced we are correct about emo.

  2. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    This is different then what I was thinking of when I said lazy Te. I was referring to just accepting "groupings" as truth. More like a static framework as justification. Maybe this is just a part of sloppy. I dont know.

    Completely lost yet?
    I wanted to start with this part-the groupings are sounding very NeTe-vague generalities. This is okay because, somewhat problematically, the TRUTH is the underlying Fi connection. Oops, you dont have Fi huh? Hehehe, what a mess. The undelying Fi is what is REAL and that Fi is the ultimate reality of the individual-not the sloppy box. The sloppy box is kinda like using the automatic pilot to line you up for a plane landing. Once you are in close-80% of the way there, you manual take over the controls and fine tune the landing based on all the micro signals received from Fi.

    I bet the ENTPs take the opposite approach-Their automatic pilot is Fe and then once in close they optimize the landing with Ti in social situations. Do the INFJs do this as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Could it not be a reluctance, but more of a not being Ne. With me, half truths I tend to agree with in regard to myself. Kinda like a reluctance(lazy) to dig any deeper by following the path. It takes alot for me to seperate half truths into full truths or work out the details. I have to follow the path and figure out the seperation, possibly short sighted Ti.
    I'd say not short sighted-but TiSe. You are working with the immediate reality. If you dig too far down a given path, the probability of accuracy declines greatly? Thus instead you explore and context shift around the immediate paths? I totally understand how sloppy Ne could mess that up as the paths are poorly defined generalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I do follow paths at times, though sometimes I do get lazy and just follow others. I dont really think about expanding in a Ne way though, its not reluctance, its just not even close to the normal paths I take. This is why I mentioned being quieter and letting people believe what they want, because I lose follow up with a convo or sometimes dont want to follow up with clarification. May be a good thing or a bad thing, I dont know. I dont always want people to know who I really am, especially the things I consider a good quality. One of the co-workers I IM with alot we tend to revisit things alot and this causes us to dig deeper or possibly expand into other areas in relation to areas we have already explored. It may be her building her framework and lattice. In IM and being Ti I tend to just follow and play with thoughts, contexts, shifting, etc. I dont do this quite as much in person though. The shifts can be pretty entertaining sometimes and go in directions that lead to OMGOSH. To me this is playing(alot of it turns into things that are generally inappropriate, stupid context shifting always ends up in the gutter). I build my frameworks after the fact.
    This is a really beautiful insight into how TiSeNi flow together. Thanks for sharing this Poki, I really appreciate it. The bold part-totally cool-it is the lesson I wish folks could grasp. The idea that it is okay to take a different path-not my path-but that's okay. There is no one correct path.

    Framework building after the fact? Yikes...!

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Ni is more about the concept as opposed to the detail. So expanding on the concept will be much different then expanding on the detail. I work with an ENTP and he really likes to dig into the detail, while I enjoy digging into the concept. He made a comment one time about me basically rewriting a framework because I dissected it, figured out the concept and shifted that concept over to what we were doing. He would find the details of the framework and bring it into our project as a whole. For him our project is designed of patterns and frameworks, to me I build the framework off of understanding the concepts of other frameworks. We work completely different. I will understand what we are doing and create the concept and piece together the details as I work in a very sloppy approach that I streamline and rewrite as I go. Alot of rewriting, debugging, logging, etc. Kinda like you sloppily painting the details and restructuring on the fly. I lose pretty much everyone if they watch me work as I bounce around. My code ends up with alot of fail overs where I seperate paths at key points and I kinda create switches to move between the paths, eventually killing off the old path and using the new improved path. Is this what NFPs do with NeFiTe? Like an internal rewiring, that affects things externally as well.
    I would describe more as an internal remolding-not rewireing. Hehehe! Te vs Ti methinks. Since we are feeding off of external data-the data is "correct" and "real" due to the tert Te. What changes is either our structure we have built or we re-understand a part of our analysis thus the data fits in a new way. With Fi this is far, far harder-like your Ti frameowkr being built after the fact, my Fi is built after the fact and can take a pretty long time to rebuild.

    (The ENTP comparison was beautiful btw!)

  3. #513
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    IRL my ability to use what I perceive to be Te to structure things seems to vary-oddly with my monthly cycle. I may say I can use "more Te" but in reality it may be that when I think Te feels stronger-I am really using less Ne. I dunno. Trying to pin Ne ideas down can be very hard as they ramble on and are constantly in motion-so Te steps in and stabs a pin in them-which given the club like nature-can appear way too absolute and concrete. I couldnt give a damn as, to be honest, I need the pin downed point so that I can make the next Ne leap. However if the goal is to convey an idea, well, total fail as everyone gets pissed because you come across as a know it all.

    There is something interesting about the internet though-people think I am very sweet in real life but rude online. A couple of INTPs were saying on another thread that people think they are really nice online but IRL they are assholes. The INTJs come across as very sweet online but IRL, can seem much more abrupt. I once saw someone say we loose upwards of 70% of the content in textual communication due to loss of nonverbal content..

    standard theory says Tert functions can be used under a lot of stress and be brutal, they can be developed over time and be a tool for the dom-aux functions or they can be developed due to weird influence from the outside world. Being that I am Ne and that I seek to extend the Te structure to the max-I assume that the above three developmental paths apply to each type-however I havent observed enough Fe doms to say yes or no to your question. If I dont see data to back something up-I dont trust the validity of the idea, even if Ne sees connections.
    I try to limit my asshole-s-ness online. It can be fun and entertaining as long as you dont take it as far as an "ENTP" . ESTPs have the smoothness to know when and where online. They can sense things much better and bend and flex, where "ENTP" gets a huge kick which an SFP could play along with in a "Nicki Minaj" style if they so wanted to. NFPs though are different, you have to play with them differently. Its fun to play with INTJs because underneath I know they are serious people, though they "can" have fun. Give em a beer, or wait awhile and it will eventually show up. Its like me turning to my ESTP niece and saying, well I cant be boring all the time as I take a curb, cut across the grass so I can make a right hand turn at a backed up intersection. I can easily be way to laid back and boring to others, especially when I have no desire to engage. Had no reason to, it just seemed like something fun to do. For me reasonings are fun to play with, see what you can and cant get away with. Unlike an IJ my mind doesnt wander with Si or Ni when I talk to people in person, I follow them, just about every word. The easiest way to throw off an IJ is to weave in something they like. At that point they hear what they want, ignore everything else, and become blind to half of what they hear. Then are clueless to why things happened the way they did. Its not fare, I have to willingly become blind after the fact....try and figure that one out. Anyway as much blasting as I do to IJs I personally have no problems with them in regard to Me and Them. I get along with them really good, Fe at its best...or worst

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I would say this is the ENFP projecting their worldview upon you. This is a common enfp thing to do-"I know how you feel", when in reality to try and understand what an Fe user feels is doomed to fail. Be aware you are setting a trap though-by not contridicting what the enfp says in the moment, -it speaks to your agreement. Thus the enfp will move forward assuming the initial foundation was true. You are expecting them to be able to infer what is going on in your head-your motives. It isnt what we do.

    Now if you correct the enfp-and they keep insisting, well that is a bit rude of them-there is something a little funny going on with respect to what they are hearing. As Marm said-when young we can be more convinced we are correct about emo.
    Yes, my predicament, and my screw up

  4. #514

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    hehehe, was looking for a plot for poki but found this:



    Me=Fi
    You =Fe
    Us=a very confused place where we are missing 80% of the messages the other intends to communicate.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    When looking at MBTI though, it's interesting to see how far it will stretch out, how far the usefulness of that particular tool extends. It's not that we've forgotten the other tools or their well-documented uses. Sometimes, although all of the above appears forgotten, I think it's simply assumed obvious in the context of trying to see what typology can "do". Is that helpful to explain why you get warning bells that the premise is unsound?
    FYI, everyone: pay attention to the bolded. We are, after all, on a typology forum. To respond to any sort of typological statement with the "but typology does not (or cannot) explain everything" platitude means nothing without an additional explanation of how and why, in whatever particular case, typology is insufficient or limited, beyond just saying that people are unique or whatever other catch-all explanation for dismissing typology first occurs to one's mind. There is no way to prove, one way or another, whether a specific application of typology is true or false; at most, a discussion can shed light on which applications of typology appear to be useful or not so useful.

    In these threads, Fe users ask many questions ... since I see the effort being made to try to understand, I try to explain, thus it does set up a cycle (in these particular situations) where I am trying more to be understood than to understand myself. In my perhaps flawed logic, to understand me, means you can understand a little slice of Fi, so I try to offer myself kind of unvarnished, if you will - the acoustic version of PB ... and then when (if) each Fi user does this, the larger patterns of Fi will be more heard, more visible, more real to people.

    @bold: What I am trying to say, in another way, is that I want to explain Fi by being Fi, by talking in Fi terms, otherwise I am diluting and altering the message. Then, it's not really Fi anymore, not really "me " anymore. To "play" on the music analogy uumlau, you won't really understand heavy metal or one of Beethoven's sonatas until you really listened to each ... me describing the music to you in terms of another style of music is not going to replicate the actual experience of hearing that music for yourself. It's not about expecting everyone to accommodate my music. If a person does try to listen to my music but doesn't like it, I guess one of us has to bend ... either I don't play my music, or I try to make it sound more like yours in order to effectively communicate and have a relationship. Or, I can just keep playing it my way and let the chips fall where they may.

    Going even farther on a personal level with the analogy, instead of being appreciated for playing my music (displaying that level of honesty on this forum) I feel especially lately that I have lost credibility points for doing so. In sharing on my terms, I am well aware I risk alienating the very people I want to make connections with. And I know I likely have; this really saddens me. It's totally clear to me that IRL I have to use all of my tools to communicate with people. Here on the forum, I wanted to try a different approach for a while, let the PB song play a little more loudly. But, since I like harmony too much to keep playing my tune and offending the ears of some of the audience, I need to contemplate turning it down for a while.

    And hey, and this is no pity party on my end. It is what it is, and I accept that.
    A part of what happens with respect to translating between contexts/frames/spaces is that some things don't translate well or at all. Moreover, some information is even extraneous, filler material, patterns of speech or thought that enter the communication, but are not actually relevant to any particular message.

    Here is a song with a very Fi message. I'm going to post three versions of it, here. I believe every version has the core message, but each is in a different frame, with extraneous elements that don't translate.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW88EvEAd0k"]Pop version (Joshua Tree)[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejc8a5wW8QI"]Gospel Version (from Rattle and Hum)[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpgXT2n0YWg"]Salsa Version (Coco Freeman)[/YOUTUBE]

    The core Fi message is along the lines of, "There's something here I need to know/understand/figure-out/discover. I will know what it is when I find it, but beyond that, I cannot say." It is a statement of the nature of faith, that in spite of belief, there is something missing. That in spite of overcoming many challenges, of having known love/desire, knowing both good and evil, it is still missing ... but it is out there to be found.

    Note that in the music I've posted, as good as it is, there are elements that repulse some others, including other Fi users. Heck, an Fi-dom salsa friend of mine doesn't like the salsa version, because she hates pop music turned into salsa, and that makes it not really salsa in her mind. (But, proving her Fi-frame-of-mind, she'll then say, "Oh, yeah, you like this song, so it's OK if you dance it with me.")

    So part of the challenge of communicating ideas, especially complex ideas, especially abstract ideas that cannot be stated in concrete terms, is to figure out how to convey the idea such that the proper "resonance" is achieved in the other person. That resonance isn't an exact replication of the original idea. Even when it's a concrete idea, different people will "store" it differently, e.g., Ni storing "meaning" while Si often recalls the exact words. But the idea is conveyed and understood after a fashion.

    There is another aspect of this resonance: especially in Fi terms, what one will hear in return for one's own song is a very different song. You still hear your own song in there, but now it carries two hearts instead of one. The Joshua Tree version is the original, but someone else heard the rather hidden "gospel" tones of the song, and brought those out: it's the same song, sung by a different heart, emphasizing what that heart heard and resonates, and adding that heart's own characteristic touch. Similarly, the salsa version takes the original and seamlessly adds a salsa beat, a Spanish translation, and some spectacular brass that takes the original question of faith and turns it into a celebration of life.

    Same song, same Fi. Entering new hearts reveals new understandings.

    So part of the reason I explicate this is to give the Fe side of the equation an idea of how Fi interacts in its own terms. Those who identify with Fe (plus Ni) in this thread will most likely find my explanation to resonate more with Ni than Fe.

    The other part of the reason I explicate this is that in order to convey an idea, it isn't enough to just be authentic and express it as one understands it oneself: some people will get it right away, but most won't. One must also listen to the hearts of others and express it in a way that properly resonates in those hearts as well as one's own.

    So back to my heavy metal music analogy, one's own heart might be heavy metal, but perhaps the other heart needs to hear a power ballad version of what you have to say, and not "Highway to Hell" version. No, it's not the "complete truth," but if one evokes enough of the truth, the other can use that to find the rest, or even truths that you don't see, yet.

    And finally, in order to properly listen and translate, one eventually needs to be able to hear all of the different versions in their own terms without being repulsed by some element or another. By instantly rejecting some aspect of a message, one actually changes the message one hears into a message very different from the one sent. Ironically, yes, I am on the one hand saying that one should frame the message so that others don't instantly reject it, but on the other hand that one should strive to not instantly reject others' messages: these points are complimentary, however, not contradictory.

  6. #516

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    okay, totally dorking out:


    Imagine these plots above are representative of each personality type.
    Notice that in each plot, there are areas that are very dark-these are areas where there is a very high certainty that, for our purposes, knoweldge is "correct" or "right".
    Now imagine an ENFP as being (2,1,0). Imagine an INFJ as being (2,1,1).
    When you overlay the plots, notice neither individual will feel comfortable-as the areas where each is highly certain, dont overlap cleanly. Where one is highly certain the other is totally uncertain.

    Since we cant see these probabilities in advance for anyone but ourselves-we must assume other people share the same probability areas that we do. Projection of our worldview/probibility of being correct onto them. As an ENFP I would assume everyone sees the world as I do-from a (2,1,0) perspective.

    If the other person continues to insist they are correct-in what appears to be an impossible way from our perception-we will retreat into defensive behavior-as our worldview is totally correct to us. Why cant they see how wrong/incorrect they are?

    In reality both plots/worldviews are legitimate and each individual can be trusted in their particular worldview.

    There is not one path. There is not one worldview. If we can bring ourselves to trust those who see into other worldviews-we can learn enormously and complement our knowledge-but we have to be willing to legitimately recognize they have a right to their worldview first.

    If our worldview is value-linked....Fi or Fe...we have to be willing to step away from the innate feeling of offense felt-and try and to gain neutrality and recognize we are offending ourselves-by forcing our worldview onto someone it was never meant to fit. We-not the other person-are the problem.

  7. #517
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    hehehe, was looking for a plot for poki but found this:



    Me=Fi
    You =Fe
    Us=a very confused place where we are missing 80% of the messages the other intends to communicate.
    Yet alot of whats not intended is picked up Or maybe this is the NiSe and NeSi.

    Honestly in this regard I fall back on their Fi. It shows how they feel, its concrete and real. It shows who they are, else they use Te. People will argue that Fi is selfish, but if you learn to work with that selfishness, its like feeding a killer whale fish so it does tricks, then Te is not heavily used in a defensive manner. To me Fi is real, Te seems to be what is real to you. This is part of my live and let live attitude, its this aaceptance of what is. Either I am worth it or I am not. I dont actually pay any attention to what I am worth, at the end of the day decisions are what decides worth. A baseball that a book says is worth $500 is not worth it until anyone actually decides to buy it. Until then its nothing more then potential energy.

    edit: of course there is a time when you question if what you bought is worth it after you buy it, or if the value sinks 10 years down the road, or you try to decide before hand if it really is worth the potential energy. Different people worry about different areas. THey usually do focus on one more then the others though when it comes to worth.

  8. #518
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    If our worldview is value-linked....Fi or Fe...we have to be willing to step away from the innate feeling of offense felt-and try and to gain neutrality and recognize we are offending ourselves-by forcing our worldview onto someone it was never meant to fit. We-not the other person-are the problem.
    That makes sense, still dont like one person taking the blame when 2 people are involved. One of my values that coincide with yours it seems as you blame yourself solely

  9. #519

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    incidentally - i find preserving external harmony when i'm not aligned really taxing. it's akin to hearing a fire alarm blaring and not doing anything about it... it makes me fidgety and uncomfortable and guilty-feeling and eventually exhausted.


    that's why i think all this Fe-Fi breakdown is so important - to those of you who are questioning why we need these Fi and Fe threads at all. because we need to know the spaces we're dealing with before we can hope to properly translate.

    so it really feels a bit ridiculous ("ridiculous" not meant to carry a connotation of offense - the word just captures the feeling of... well, silliness) to have people keep pointing out that maybe everything can't be attributed to cognitive functions. that's a given in the Fi paradigm (at least as i know it and have seen in others thus far). it's almost insulting, to keep getting told that we're overapplying. i work so hard to deconstruct boxes people put around one another ALL THE TIME irl that it's awful to have the accusation thrown at me online that i would do such a thing. and it seems illogical, too, to be told that it's overanalysis. since when has expounding upon and refining ideas become bad? this confrontation/warning that's been raised a few times by Fe users - i've seen similar posts from proteanmix, cascadeco, jaguar, and fidelia - all seem so counterintuitive to a Fi/Te approach.

    and maybe that explains, a bit, why it's so frustrating to some when others point out that it sounds like we're overapplying, or accusing anyone specifically of being a certain way because of the way we tend to make large-scale grouping characteristics. i think it's a communication gap because the Fi users are leaving out the "assumed" information that we do acknowledge that there will always be exceptions to any trend and that we don't mean to blanket others, just to group for better understanding.
    The above in bold resonates very strongly with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Thus, as a rule of thumb, if people are doing something their type structure says they usually can't, then they're probably doing something else. Or the environment is helping in some way. And if that environmental influence was sustained enough that the person genuinely does develop unusual strengths and focuses, pffft, whatever, they're a different type now or they're a stressed normal type with some scars--who cares?! If you want to study environmental impact on persons, go for it. If you want to say environmental impact is more substantial than whatever creates Jungian appearances, go for that too. And some other stuff that I don't care about. Freaking extroverts claiming the environment is most important but still not recognising their own bias toward the environment and thus attempting to alter theory of ALL people?! Pffft.
    But types live in the external world. Thus, for an extrovert, heheheh, the final person is what is of value interest. Excellent point regarding introverts being less influenced btw. I'd say Ni doms are by far the least influenced by externalities, thus would Ni doms would be by far the most likely to project "normal" functional development on their extroverted peers? An interesting question: Do Ni doms always develop in the expected functional order? If not....then what influences them? something internal? *chews cud*


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    When looking at MBTI though, it's interesting to see how far it will stretch out, how far the usefulness of that particular tool extends. It's not that we've forgotten the other tools or their well-documented uses. Sometimes, although all of the above appears forgotten, I think it's simply assumed obvious in the context of trying to see what typology can "do". Is that helpful to explain why you get warning bells that the premise is unsound?

    Going even farther on a personal level with the analogy, instead of being appreciated for playing my music (displaying that level of honesty on this forum) I feel especially lately that I have lost credibility points for doing so. In sharing on my terms, I am well aware I risk alienating the very people I want to make connections with. And I know I likely have; this really saddens me.
    ^^The parts in bold resonate very deeply with me as well. Specifically, this thread...has been very...painful for me at points. In the past, accusations that I am broken because of how I analyze the world, have been very painful for me. However the polite thing to do is not to dump that pain at others, or respond defensively in anger, thus I try and be more analytical-even if it means detaching from the emotions of others-and thus not validating their discomfort at the pressure being applied upon them in the thread. I am deeply saddened that I might have hurt or made others offended-as I care very much for them-but the issue isnt about me-it is about seeing others go through this same issue, the same pattern being repeated again and again. So I would sacrifice my relationships to potentially forge a new understanding, in that others are not hurt in the future.

  10. #520
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    It sucks to see an ENFP whos worldview has overtaken their internal view and lost that balance. Oro, the way I see this fix is when your ENTP suggested that you meld(I dont remember your exact word, maybe anneal) what you saw as Fi and Te to strengthen yourself which allows you to bring it back into balance. I dont know how I would define your Fi and Te that you merged. Fi sounded like a halfway point between what I see as Fi and Si. *edited*: I am lost though as to Te, maybe that one stood alone and pushed you back to Ne openness and experience.

    I am lost as to what ENFPs go through the world doing. It seems they go through the world upbeat, get burned, settle with a worldview, and then get stuck in a rut based on this worldview. At that point control things to make it through this world view to avoid getting stepped on again and aim for the lesser of 2 evils. Not realizing that "evil" has been defined by their "worldview", which is based on experience. More will come as I try and figure you people out

    edit: All along the way they try their hardest to keep that upbeat, no matter how beat down they get. Avoiding this melding of Fi and Te and trying to balance each individually maybe.

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