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  1. #481

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I found it interesting whne you said that you find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. I'm very much the same and find that narrowing down some of the possibilities makes it possible for me to much more effectively perform my role.
    Yes, when there are a thousand paths in front of you that look suitable to walk down, it`s hard to choose which one to walk down.

  2. #482
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's not just a matter of choosing that path, but I think Ni keeps making you aware of all of the many branches that can also diverge from each of the given possible courses. It becomes too overwhelming and you become paralyzed.

  3. #483
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Sometimes I feel shortsighted compared to a Ne-dom though, because they see everything, all at once. It`s like a bird`s eye view. I can only see the big picture once I internalize all the details, I can`t just quickly overview something. When I collaborate with an ENFP friend of mine on stories, she usually creates the stories backbone, and thinks about it holistically. Sometimes, she doesn`t even write the words to the story, she writes what the characters are basically saying and doing. Then she gives it to me to do a lot of the fine brushstrokes. I zoom so far in, that often I lose sight of the big picture, but she reminds me. That being said, just by inserting thousands of little details, the story can be changed a lot, much to my ENFP friend`s surprise. She doesn`t mind though. She creates an unusual and clever story structure, and I work within it. I find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. She finds it hard to be creative when she has to work within a structure I impose on her.
    I do think Ne doms do think about the big picture in a different way. It's quite complimentary to Ni and frequently the perspectives are compelling to me. They open up options or possibilities that I haven't considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really understand your definition of Ni, Orobas, because in my view, Ni is one of the mostly likely functions to explore every possibility that could happen and try to account for what the result would be. It may take what is and extrapolate all of the possibilities from there, but I think if anything, Ni's probably is not narrowing things down enough. Ni very much tends to want to consider the effects of a course of action long down the road and most Ni users I've talked to seem surprised that others do not instinctively see what effect a particular course of action is likely to have in the future.

    I see it kind of like doing a puzzle. Ne is willing to consider all sorts of possibilities, even unlikely looking ones. This can lead to novel but effective ways of doing things. Unexpected solutions to difficult problems. It would try pieces that no one else would consider. Ni on the other hand looks at the puzzle piece, then at the hole and compares whether it would fit or if it would be way off base before even trying the piece in the hole. It looks for markers of what is going to be the most likely solution or what could work if that solution does not exist.

    That's my perception of it anyway. Perhaps I am mistaken. Sometimes having something as a dominant function means that you see it so close up that you are not even completely aware of how you use it or how it affects your perspective.
    Yes - I very much agree with these things.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  4. #484
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    Highlander I think your lists of Fi/Fe are awesome ... you could have been describing the basic differences between me and my ENFJ sister and how we interact with others.

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    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, it's not just a matter of choosing that path, but I think Ni keeps making you aware of all of the many branches that can also diverge from each of the given possible courses. It becomes too overwhelming and you become paralyzed.
    Ni really sucks in this manner.

  6. #486
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, it's not just a matter of choosing that path, but I think Ni keeps making you aware of all of the many branches that can also diverge from each of the given possible courses. It becomes too overwhelming and you become paralyzed.
    Wow, I've had that happen too - sometimes on important things. It can be pretty frustrating. My theory on it is the judging function can help balance it out though. That is, when this happens, you need to exercise more Te or Fe to get out of it.

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  7. #487
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Highlander, you wrote
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is what I think some of the differences are:

    Ne

    Objective, reality oriented
    Possibilities
    Dispersed
    Short term

    Ni
    Subjective, meaning oriented
    Answers
    Focused
    Long term
    To which Oro replied
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Ni is amazingly short sighted to me-as it focuses only on one problem at a time.....unless it can translate the particular Se instance to a set of universal Ni truths. In which case I await them eagarly with delight as they fix flaws in my underlying structure.
    Thus evoking your response
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think "short sighted" is a very good term to describe it because it implies lacking foresight which I can't imagine would be characteristic of Ni. It's drawing from a very large number of data points to converge on a perspective. That's different from being short sighted or myopic.
    Ne and Ni will see each other as myopic. If you don't think so, you need to go debate an INTP long enough until you both believe the other completely clueless.

    Ne goes for breadth, Ni goes for depth. Ne goes for everything possible in the now, Ni goes for everything possible in the future. Each will see the other as ignoring huge sets of possibility.

    One thing Oro points out is the overlap. Oftentimes, Ni can delve in and find a "universal truth" that is universal enough for Ne + Ti/Fi to accept as really true, and then that truth becomes a foundation point for other pattern searches in the here and now. But most of the time, Ni comes up with an insight that is really only useful in a specific case at a specific time, and isn't easily used as an object lesson to teach others patterns/truths.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really understand your definition of Ni, Orobas, because in my view, Ni is one of the mostly likely functions to explore every possibility that could happen and try to account for what the result would be. It may take what is and extrapolate all of the possibilities from there, but I think if anything, Ni's probably is not narrowing things down enough. Ni very much tends to want to consider the effects of a course of action long down the road and most Ni users I've talked to seem surprised that others do not instinctively see what effect a particular course of action is likely to have in the future.

    I see it kind of like doing a puzzle. Ne is willing to consider all sorts of possibilities, even unlikely looking ones. This can lead to novel but effective ways of doing things. Unexpected solutions to difficult problems. It would try pieces that no one else would consider. Ni on the other hand looks at the puzzle piece, then at the hole and compares whether it would fit or if it would be way off base before even trying the piece in the hole. It looks for markers of what is going to be the most likely solution or what could work if that solution does not exist.

    That's my perception of it anyway. Perhaps I am mistaken. Sometimes having something as a dominant function means that you see it so close up that you are not even completely aware of how you use it or how it affects your perspective.
    You're not far off, Fidelia. It took me a while to realize that "introverted intuition" meant "how I think," because I never regarded it as particularly mystical or magical - after all, I was coming up with objectively true conclusions, and couldn't see from outside myself that other people found that rather amazing. After figuring out how it might seem magical, I managed to come up with some more concrete explanations of Ni. Fitting puzzle pieces together is a good analogy: it's as if I first try to understand the puzzle pieces in and of themselves, then I let them juggle in my head, automatically bonding together as if atoms in a chemical reaction, and then when its done, I let others know what molecule resulted.

    Oro is seeing it as short-sighted, because Ne sees this huge landscape that Ni very often misses. Similarly, Ni sees possibilities and options that Ne often misses, because Ne is thinking "space-like" while Ni is thinking "time-like".


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Here's what I think of Ne and Ni:

    Ne: weaving together the common underlying thread in divergent situations/cultures/subjects, clarifying the ultimate underlying pattern, brainstorming random possibilities, making wacky humorous connections and silly imaginative nonsense

    Ni: tenacious vision for long-term goals or the definitive future/end of a situation etc., examining a single situation or subject or behavior from every possible angle, grasping underlying meanings similar to Ne but rather picking out motive or "why" instead of "how they're all connected," conspiracies about Russian spies and space aliens
    This is a very good description, Marm.

    A similar one that I recently come up with is that Ne sounds out the resonances between widely divergent ideas. The resonances are treated as clues to similarities, then Fi or Ti does further inner analysis to figure out if they really are the same. Typologies fit very well with this kind of approach.

    Ni, I think works almost backwards from this. It is so interested in "meaning" that it writes meaning. Usually, this is used as error correction in communication, where someone misspells or misspeaks, one writes in and otherwise corrects the message. Most of the time this works really well, though it tends to fall flat in some aspects of the Fi/Fe dialog, since the added meaning is often not the originally intended meaning.

    Moreover, Ni can take this talent for writing meaning, and creatively invoke meaning, by playing with words, creating associations, forging connections that others appreciate. It is "backwards" from the Ne approach, because in this mode, Ni can create resonances in meaning that Ne in turn can appreciate, instantly perceiving the connection between two ideas.

    E.g., at the hotel Oro and I checked into today, there was a calendar with a picture of some cute seals being affectionate with each other on the counter. I remarked, "You know, there should be more social opportunities for seals, especially the young ones. Perhaps a Club for Baby Seals?" Oro instantly made the connection and chided me even as she chuckled.

  8. #488
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    haha, I dunno..I could be said to be Te lazy. I use it like a club and then dont really follow up with the details like a REAL Te user would. The less differentiated the function, the more clumsy our use of it will be. I think the interesting part is that folks who can tag team that tert function can have really interesting perspectives-NiTi, NeTe, NiFi, TiNi...so there is room for error if not cross checked by the aux function, but the perspective and analysis put forth can still be quite interesting. In U's example...it would be like peeking into an extra dimension that most folks cant see into...It is an unusual perspective but not invalid-just different.
    Do you become Te lazy IRL? Just wondering since on here our(I's) inner world comes out which is our dominant direction. Do you think that in actual interactions tertiary becomes lazy with Es? Like an ENFJs Se becomes lazy and they stop really picking up on things. They fall back more on Fe. Or Te becomes lazy with ENFP in actual real life interactions?

    I am gonna have to find a way around this lazy Te function because I do see it IRL a couple times with ENFPs. It has caught me on this board one time in particular. I wont generally put up with lazy Te. The way it comes out is you believe what you want to believe about me. Very few people can get me to try to get them to believe something else, eventually I give up though because I am not gonna force people to believe anything. Over my life as I become quieter and quieter it has turned into a huge huge key I use to determine if someone knows me or not. I will let them run off in there own direction and it helps me understand who they are. That should change now that I am changing my life to get past what has lead up to me being this introverted.

  9. #489
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're not far off, Fidelia. It took me a while to realize that "introverted intuition" meant "how I think," because I never regarded it as particularly mystical or magical - after all, I was coming up with objectively true conclusions, and couldn't see from outside myself that other people found that rather amazing. After figuring out how it might seem magical, I managed to come up with some more concrete explanations of Ni. Fitting puzzle pieces together is a good analogy: it's as if I first try to understand the puzzle pieces in and of themselves, then I let them juggle in my head, automatically bonding together as if atoms in a chemical reaction, and then when its done, I let others know what molecule resulted.
    I think this is what really throws people off with what Ti is. So people who "think alot" get pinned as dominant Ti, this is the reason I think that ISTP is the dumping ground for introverted men. Because they "think" internally.

  10. #490

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think "short sighted" is a very good term to describe it because it implies lacking foresight which I can't imagine would be characteristic of Ni. It's drawing from a very large number of data points to converge on a perspective. That's different from being short sighted or myopic.]
    My apologies-I was typing quickly. Let me correct and say "for a very long time I perceived Ni doms-in particular INTJs-to be seemingly single point focused-thus somewhat short sited as to the broad range a particular insight could be applied to" Once on the forum, I kept hitting this and it wasnt until a thread over at INTJf where context shifting was discussed that i really got what was going on.

    My original point is more-just as you may perceive Ne to be "short-sighted" from how you would approach a problem, I might see Ni to be short sighted. Once again-simply our own worldview coloring how we judge an external process exhibited by another. Wanted to focus of the Perception of shortsightedness-not factually state it as short sighted-my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Actually, that's really interesting. Are there some statistics on these tests? I always thought DISC was more reliable than that

    Edit: Here is a report on DISC validity. A little complicated to understand though.

    http://www.discprofile.com/downloads...archReport.pdf
    Let me read these in depth and get back to you. My initial statemtn of 1/3 was based upon the group of people I was working with-about 1/3 were EXTPs. It seems from a priliminary survey....D=Te, I=Fi, S=Fe and problematically SiTe and Ti and even Fe all contaminate C. So DISC worked very well for enfps-amazingly well actually, well with Fe doms, well with the few STJs. But the EXTPs were really unhappy with the results...Will look in more detail though...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really understand your definition of Ni, Orobas, because in my view, Ni is one of the mostly likely functions to explore every possibility that could happen and try to account for what the result would be. It may take what is and extrapolate all of the possibilities from there, but I think if anything, Ni's probably is not narrowing things down enough. Ni very much tends to want to consider the effects of a course of action long down the road and most Ni users I've talked to seem surprised that others do not instinctively see what effect a particular course of action is likely to have in the future.

    .
    My apologies Fidelia-see my reply above to highlander regarding what I intended the message to be. Ni is complex and crazy awesome amazing and can generate really cool answers.. One real risk may be that because it feels so very natural to ni users-there may not be an awareness how how destablizing an Ni generated idea or lack of trust can be to an Si user. In NFPs, this is ...particularly painful...as we may have a valued based idea that we are discussing-only to have the Ni dom context shift and tell us that the way we percieve the issue-with our Si is flawed-as it would lock the ni dom into one context. It isnt our idea on a particular issue that is wrong-but our entire FiSi approach-thus our soul more or less, our entire sense of self definition, our values. Yup. Ouch. Totally due to a different need for flexibility in perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Sometimes I feel shortsighted compared to a Ne-dom though, because they see everything, all at once. It`s like a bird`s eye view. I can only see the big picture once I internalize all the details, I can`t just quickly overview something. When I collaborate with an ENFP friend of mine on stories, she usually creates the stories backbone, and thinks about it holistically. Sometimes, she doesn`t even write the words to the story, she writes what the characters are basically saying and doing. Then she gives it to me to do a lot of the fine brushstrokes. I zoom so far in, that often I lose sight of the big picture, but she reminds me. That being said, just by inserting thousands of little details, the story can be changed a lot, much to my ENFP friend`s surprise. She doesn`t mind though. She creates an unusual and clever story structure, and I work within it. I find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. She finds it hard to be creative when she has to work within a structure I impose on her.
    ^^ This so sounds like my brain-the application of huge roughly sketched meta structures to every problems, yet I am totally willing to negotiate or take input on the majority of details.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Do you become Te lazy IRL? Just wondering since on here our(I's) inner world comes out which is our dominant direction. Do you think that in actual interactions tertiary becomes lazy with Es? Like an ENFJs Se becomes lazy and they stop really picking up on things. They fall back more on Fe. Or Te becomes lazy with ENFP in actual real life interactions?

    I am gonna have to find a way around this lazy Te function because I do see it IRL a couple times with ENFPs. It has caught me on this board one time in particular. I wont generally put up with lazy Te. The way it comes out is you believe what you want to believe about me. Very few people can get me to try to get them to believe something else, eventually I give up though because I am not gonna force people to believe anything. Over my life as I become quieter and quieter it has turned into a huge huge key I use to determine if someone knows me or not. I will let them run off in there own direction and it helps me understand who they are. That should change now that I am changing my life to get past what has lead up to me being this introverted.
    So first-the ENTP who said "lazy ti"-she was incorrect. What she is seeing is Ni working with Ti. Since her default would be to use Ti and embed in a solid Si foundation-she was confused as to why the INFJs seemed reluctant to keep expanding the TiSi-so she just read the Ti as not being complete. In reality to lock the Ti down into a specific form would prevent Ni context shifting-thus removing a primary strength of an ni dom in analysis. Again my apologies for the value judgment implied.

    Lazy Te? Likely more "sloppy Te". Forever Jungs description above describes a beautiful overview of how we use Te. We build frameworks and lattices, structures to layer the NeFi stuff onto. Once the structure is roughly laid out we can then sloppily paint in the details and remold on the fly. But without that meat structure-we are just floating in a ocean of fludidity with nothing...here let me pull out your post and answer each point...

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