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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #471
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Potentially, yes. More exactly while an environment will have some effect on them, they, it seems to me, bring their feeling into the environment as an extra, independent consideration. The feeling is meant to be considered as theirs alone, and influential itself as an environmental causal agent. And since there is this assertion of atomism, or at least the appearance of it, I take it for granted that there is a coherence over time. Coherence over time is if not the definition of environmental independence, then at least a logical precondition of that independence.

    EDIT: @Poki: ^ that's "fixed point feeling": feeling as a causal agent in the environment yet, at least in conscious fundamental foundation, not itself (wholly) caused by the environment.
    Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

    Me: So we're doing this?
    Fe: Yes!
    Me: Righto, lets--what?
    Fe: *shudders* Just, can you...
    Me: You don't want to do this?
    Fe: Of course I do. Just--
    Me: No, look, you're upset, or something?
    Fe: Let's go! We're doing this!
    Me: What?! No! You're like--
    Fe: Just do it!
    Me: Are you sure!
    Fe: I'm SURE!!!
    Me: Okay.
    Fe: *shudders*
    Me: Faaa--, c'mon, seriously, you don't want to do this at all, do you?!

    Etc.


    It's not that there isn't commitment. It's that commission goes haywire. I imagine that this can be overcome by adequate consultation, but my (limited) experience is that even when there is consultation, it is extremely easy to simply not hear what the other side is saying. We are, after all, talking about competing judgment functions. If one side has made a decision about what is right and the other side comes along with a different decision made under terms that the other side doesn't subscribe to...
    ahahahha That was actually a good example. Ok, yes, in that sense I can see how the outcome/decision ends up being Contingent. I think part of it for me is that some of the factors included in making decisions like that ARE the input/other people, and how the situation unfolds. So the decision-making ends up being a bit more dynamic, rather than static and my knowing absolutely right away what I think/want and therefore what decision I want to make. Factors that I consider relevant include the discussion, what the other person wants, whether that's good for me, and all of that.

    Anyway - great example. I'm having trouble articulating things but I have a great idea of what you mean with that example.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #472
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's not that there isn't commitment. It's that commission goes haywire. I imagine that this can be overcome by adequate consultation, but my (limited) experience is that even when there is consultation, it is extremely easy to simply not hear what the other side is saying. We are, after all, talking about competing judgment functions. If one side has made a decision about what is right and the other side comes along with a different decision made under terms that the other side doesn't subscribe to...
    Yes! What is the arbiter in these situations? I agree, that's when people start holding the line. You have reached the point where there is no more compromise and you may have hit your mental and psychological ceiling in trying to view it from the other's or another perspective.

    Even if one person or party gives the appearance of folding, I believe a fault line has begun and that fracture will persist unless there's a mental shift...which can take years to occur with the average person and may not go towards the middle but can go even further out. Once again it depends on going towards the middle is something you value. Common term for this is "agree to disagree."
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not really sure what you mean. Maybe I'm not explaining this correctly. I'm not talking about "the shape of things" judging by outward appearances. I'm talking about the feeling impressions I receive from a collective group of people.

    It's like when I was younger and would spend the night at a friend's house, there were certain friends I preferred being in their home and with their families than other friends. Their family as a group of people gave me a certain feeling that I didn't have before coming into contact with them. The individual friend was not a problem, but once the family as a whole unit was together the feeling of the thing changed. Like maybe I felt that I should be more "proper" because that's how their family seemed to deal with each other. It could be simple clues like how they ate dinner together...how formal the process was. Was the TV going and conversation was happening that didn't consist of asking everyone how their day was in turn. How comfortable and intimate did they naturally seem with each other. Did they ask "please pass the peas" or did they just reach over each other and grab the food. How comfortable did they seem being in each others space or did it seem awkward. The flow and ribbons between the people did they feel knotted or were they smooth. These are external input points but the way they hit me was how the family felt, together.

    Yeah, people can fake it, but I don't think you can fake a certain level of intimacy because it will feel like a road full of potholes. When I was a barista at Starbucks you could tell the people who were new on the espresso bar because their movements didn't flow, they couldn't move fast in a rush and not miss a beat. When people are interacting with each other and I'm in an observational mode, I feel like I can see the flow between them. Assess their comfort levels with each other and between each other. When I'm interacting with them as well, I lose some of this particular perspective, but then I gain the one of how I flow with a person 1:1.
    You remind me very strongly of my wife with this statement about families.

    I like your starbucks example, the thing is that people who are experienced to deliver that kind of intimacy wont miss a beat whether its real or not. The only thing you can ever be sure of is whether you feel like a road full of potholes during that intimacy. It really has to do with where your focus is, some people control the situation and in turn control the focus. They get upset when they cant control it because they lose the focus. To me this is partial intimacy or feelings, its controlled feelings, controlled stability.

  4. #474
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Me: So we're doing this?
    Fe: Yes!
    Me: Righto, lets--what?
    Fe: *shudders* Just, can you...
    Me: You don't want to do this?
    Fe: Of course I do. Just--
    Me: No, look, you're upset, or something?
    Fe: Let's go! We're doing this!
    Me: What?! No! You're like--
    Fe: Just do it!
    Me: Are you sure!
    Fe: I'm SURE!!!
    Me: Okay.
    Fe: *shudders*
    Me: Faaa--, c'mon, seriously, you don't want to do this at all, do you?!
    I LOLed at this. So what do you do in this case? Just do it. Stop asking questions.

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  5. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I LOLed at this. So what do you do in this case? Just do it. Stop asking questions.
    Depends on what "this" is

    The real thing is to be supportive along the way if decisions change and be prepared to either not do it or just go about on your own without the other person. They basically havnt made a decision yet.

  6. #476
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What type was Bill Clinton again?
    I vote ENTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just coming home in the car now, I was thinking. Is Ne sort of like dumping out a big box of different stuff and sorting it a bit at a time? Like if Ne sorted it all by shape first and said, "Here! I have now distinguished between the different types of objects that were in this box!" and Ni protested by saying, "What are you talking about? These are all different colours and sizes. You're oversimplifying!" and Ne argued that all those other factors make it too complicated. As Ne goes, it then does a second round for size and a third for colour etc and ends up arriving at the same conclusions? I'm not sure if that is even close, but I'm wondering. I have less experience looking at Ne/Ni differences.
    Ne connects things. It sees consistency across very different things and tries to connect those things together. In the moment it appears very short sighted, very limited as it hops around. In reality-it is building and reaffirming the underlying patterns it build into gigantic interconnected structures. Externally you may see the edges that are being extended, bit by bit and they seem very tentative. You may never see the continuity of the system being built underneath-because it is boring, once built. Funny...I have a better deconstructed understanding of Ni than Ne oddly.....hehehe, I think about how you think as it is more novel and interesting than how I think.

    Ni is delightful and nightmarish-as it plucks out pieces of the interconnected structure built and swaps them willy nilly. 10% of the time this is amazingly insightful. 90% of the time it is frustrating to the point of anger as it destablizes the underlying structure as I am building off of the structure. Ni and Ne relationships will require each person to have patience and forgiveness as this can be a little annoying until a pattern is figured out.

    It is very important to note if Ne is being applied to TiFe or FiTe-as that will influence the metaphor you describe above drastically.

    If I need to decorate a tree .... I need to buy a certain quantity of items to fully decorate the tree. I have a list of specific things that every tree will need to be decorated in my mind- lights, tinsel, balls, candy canes, and angel, ribbon. Hmmm, the tree needs to be red and blue themed so it will match the drapes. So I go to the store with my list to shop. Once at the store I buy all types of extra things that I didnt think I needed in the first place-It wasnt that the list was wrong-just could endlessly be optimized to be more complete. So I go home with all types of extra things in addition to the initial list of things. I may first start with the original red and blue-but very quickly I may note the light hits a corner in a certain way, or that I really like silver and blue better, and after some thought minimize the red. The individual tree will get decorated in a way that seems right-based on a lifetimes understanding of what trees should look like-combined with an individual appreciation that this tree can be totally different and even break those rules-and still be quite beautiful in its individuality.

    Another aspect-I cannot use systems back and forth the way Ni doms do-it violates my ethics. (My ethics are involve some level of certainty in the consistency of the tool I am using) If I dont have some level of certainty in the entire system-even if it has holes and patches-I could not use it. DISC is a very common test adminstered due to simplicity-but about 1/3 of folks I spoke with were very unhappy with the results and it was meaningless to them-even disturbing to them as it gives them answers that contradict their own self understanding. Thus I would feel ethically disturbed to try and give the test to others. Since I cant be certain it will work most of the time, I wouldnt use the tool. Ennergram falls in this category as well and I dont see how it can be individualized on the fly for a given person-. There are too many blurry edges in it-thus I would be very hesitant to use it as a tool, albeit much of that blurriness could be my lack of knowledge. NLP has a great deal of Ne promise-but again until I have some notion of consistency of the entire tool-I would not suggest it.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is what I think some of the differences are:

    Ne

    Objective, reality oriented
    Possibilities
    Dispersed
    Short term

    Ni
    Subjective, meaning oriented
    Answers
    Focused
    Long term

    As Uumlau said, I think the Ti vs Te preference is also a big part of this too.

    Wait - but does this mean that much of the Fe/Fi debate isn't about those two functions at all? It's about other differences?
    Ni is amazingly short sighted to me-as it focuses only on one problem at a time.....unless it can translate the particular Se instance to a set of universal Ni truths. In which case I await them earearly with delight as they fix flaws in my underlying structure.

    And yes-as Bamboos' beautiful post earlier highlighted-it will never be about just one function-although it is delightful to try and isolate if possible. Each type will have a worldview, types within types will have worldviews, types with types within cultures will have worldviews, types within types within cultures in single parent families will have worldviews-an infinite regression down to the individual. The INFJs are spot on with the conclusion in that regard.

  7. #477
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Ni is amazingly short sighted to me-as it focuses only on one problem at a time.....unless it can translate the particular Se instance to a set of universal Ni truths. In which case I await them earearly with delight as they fix flaws in my underlying structure.
    I don't think "short sighted" is a very good term to describe it because it implies lacking foresight which I can't imagine would be characteristic of Ni. It's drawing from a very large number of data points to converge on a perspective. That's different from being short sighted or myopic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Another aspect-I cannot use systems back and forth the way Ni doms do-it violates my ethics. (My ethics are involve some level of certainty in the consistency of the tool I am using) If I dont have some level of certainty in the entire system-even if it has holes and patches-I could not use it. DISC is a very common test adminstered due to simplicity-but about 1/3 of folks I spoke with were very unhappy with the results and it was meaningless to them-even disturbing to them as it gives them answers that contradict their own self understanding. Thus I would feel ethically disturbed to try and give the test to others. Since I cant be certain it will work most of the time, I wouldnt use the tool. Ennergram falls in this category as well and I dont see how it can be individualized on the fly for a given person-. There are too many blurry edges in it-thus I would be very hesitant to use it as a tool, albeit much of that blurriness could be my lack of knowledge. NLP has a great deal of Ne promise-but again until I have some notion of consistency of the entire tool-I would not suggest it.
    Actually, that's really interesting. Are there some statistics on these tests? I always thought DISC was more reliable than that

    Edit: Here is a report on DISC validity. A little complicated to understand though.

    http://www.discprofile.com/downloads...archReport.pdf

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  8. #478
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Sometimes I feel shortsighted compared to a Ne-dom though, because they see everything, all at once. It`s like a bird`s eye view. I can only see the big picture once I internalize all the details, I can`t just quickly overview something. When I collaborate with an ENFP friend of mine on stories, she usually creates the stories backbone, and thinks about it holistically. Sometimes, she doesn`t even write the words to the story, she writes what the characters are basically saying and doing. Then she gives it to me to do a lot of the fine brushstrokes. I zoom so far in, that often I lose sight of the big picture, but she reminds me. That being said, just by inserting thousands of little details, the story can be changed a lot, much to my ENFP friend`s surprise. She doesn`t mind though. She creates an unusual and clever story structure, and I work within it. I find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. She finds it hard to be creative when she has to work within a structure I impose on her.

  9. #479
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't really understand your definition of Ni, Orobas, because in my view, Ni is one of the mostly likely functions to explore every possibility that could happen and try to account for what the result would be. It may take what is and extrapolate all of the possibilities from there, but I think if anything, Ni's probably is not narrowing things down enough. Ni very much tends to want to consider the effects of a course of action long down the road and most Ni users I've talked to seem surprised that others do not instinctively see what effect a particular course of action is likely to have in the future.

    I see it kind of like doing a puzzle. Ne is willing to consider all sorts of possibilities, even unlikely looking ones. This can lead to novel but effective ways of doing things. Unexpected solutions to difficult problems. It would try pieces that no one else would consider. Ni on the other hand looks at the puzzle piece, then at the hole and compares whether it would fit or if it would be way off base before even trying the piece in the hole. It looks for markers of what is going to be the most likely solution or what could work if that solution does not exist.

    That's my perception of it anyway. Perhaps I am mistaken. Sometimes having something as a dominant function means that you see it so close up that you are not even completely aware of how you use it or how it affects your perspective.

  10. #480
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Sometimes I feel shortsighted compared to a Ne-dom though, because they see everything, all at once. It`s like a bird`s eye view. I can only see the big picture once I internalize all the details, I can`t just quickly overview something. When I collaborate with an ENFP friend of mine on stories, she usually creates the stories backbone, and thinks about it holistically. Sometimes, she doesn`t even write the words to the story, she writes what the characters are basically saying and doing. Then she gives it to me to do a lot of the fine brushstrokes. I zoom so far in, that often I lose sight of the big picture, but she reminds me. That being said, just by inserting thousands of little details, the story can be changed a lot, much to my ENFP friend`s surprise. She doesn`t mind though. She creates an unusual and clever story structure, and I work within it. I find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. She finds it hard to be creative when she has to work within a structure I impose on her.
    I found it interesting whne you said that you find it much easier to spontaneously create within an existing structure. I'm very much the same and find that narrowing down some of the possibilities makes it possible for me to much more effectively perform my role.

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