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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #461
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    (And ps, nice summary up at #453. I too was struck by how we're closing in on descriptions that match the standard descriptions. But the discussion is making the descriptions real.


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    Oh. Thank you!

    To me the descriptions I've read in different places all seem a bit different. They range from Solitary Walkers "pure" ones to more behaviorally based ones (Haas/Hunziker). Since the descriptions are coming from what has been talked about or is happening in the thread, it does make it real though. That's a big part of the value for me personally writing them down - connecting what I've seen/heard from the posters with the theory. It may mean they are biased from a small sample size or narrow perspective though.

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  2. #462
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I liked your summary of your findings from this thread. Even though it may not represent the full complement of the population, I think the principles that have comes out from it have some merit that could be translated into practical terms.

  3. #463
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    2. My feelings/your feelings vs. our feelings - It's been solidified in this thread but previously, I don't think I fully understood the Fe perspective. I used to think that we all individually had our own feelings. I'm not sure I understood the importance of the concept of "our feelings." I have come to understand that Fe types tend look at collective feelings - or "our feelings" - and that this is an important perspective to consider. Also, and I could be leaping to a conclusion but people who prefer Fi seem to understand their own feelings better than the feelings of others and people who prefer Fe seem to understand the feelings of other people better than their own.
    I don't know, this is interesting now that I think of it. The clearest example of "our feelings" or collective feelings is morale in a group at work for example and being sensitive to what people are feeling as a cohesive wave of feeling. Or you can go to a party and feel the "vibe" in the atmosphere that people are enjoying themselves. Go to a sporting event and feel the energy of the people. Attend a funeral and feel the sorrow that permeates the atmosphere, or a wedding a feel the joy.

    Places have moods I believe. For example, you can walk past a house in your neighborhood and feel something being emitted from the house and the grounds around it. If it's dilapidated and in poor upkeep it (this inanimate object called a "house") you feel neglect being emitted from it. If it's well kept, even if it's got quirky objects and decorations in the yard you feel that it's still cared for. Same thing with neighborhoods, they give off a certain feeling.

    These are examples of having feelings or receiving feelings from people and things that aren't necessarily yours. I believe these are objective feeling "facts" that I'm not necessarily projecting because they don't hit me otherwise and I can be in a neutral receptive feeling state and have it shift based on things like this.

    Does this make sense? I did believe this was a common phenomenon but is it not?

    I'll try to comment on the rest later.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #464
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't know, this is interesting now that I think of it. The clearest example of "our feelings" or collective feelings is morale in a group at work for example and being sensitive to what people are feeling as a cohesive wave of feeling. Or you can go to a party and feel the "vibe" in the atmosphere that people are enjoying themselves. Go to a sporting event and feel the energy of the people. Attend a funeral and feel the sorrow that permeates the atmosphere, or a wedding a feel the joy.

    Places have moods I believe. For example, you can walk past a house in your neighborhood and feel something being emitted from the house and the grounds around it. If it's dilapidated and in poor upkeep it (this inanimate object called a "house") you feel neglect being emitted from it. If it's well kept, even if it's got quirky objects and decorations in the yard you feel that it's still cared for. Same thing with neighborhoods, they give off a certain feeling.

    These are examples of having feelings or receiving feelings from people and things that aren't necessarily yours. I believe these are objective feeling "facts" that I'm not necessarily projecting because they don't hit me otherwise and I can be in a neutral receptive feeling state and have it shift based on things like this.

    Does this make sense? I did believe this was a common phenomenon but is it not?

    I'll try to comment on the rest later.
    This makes complete sense. I know people who seem very tapped into this group vibe. I know I'm not very good at it. I focus on one person at a time and gaining depth of perspective on how they are feeling.

    One fly in the ointment though is what Toonia said:

    Dear Fe User,

    Dear Fe User,

    She identified with Intrapersonal and External. It doesn't quite fit the model

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  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Dunno. At least ideologically I'll always maintain that I'm being objective so when it comes to judging other people's feeling, what I consciously have available is not much more than "Oh, there's a fixed point in the decision landscape--it may change later but currently I'm supposed to incorporate that person's decision, it makes a difference to whether or not s/he's involved with what we're doing next.."

    That's what's difficult about dealing with Fe people. You guys don't offer fixed point feeling. Ironically enough, the appearance is of feeling changing unexpectedly. The shifting consensus becomes the focus rather than what I'd prefer as the focus, impersonal determination. I can't do what I do best then. I'm always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision to commit, but it's forever changing!
    What really is fixed point feeling? When I try to offer it, I gain a better understanding and at at that point my feeling has changed. Its like a constantly changing landscape where my feelings now about something is different then what they were. Its learning about who the other person is and adapting. And yes because of how easy it is for me to move from Fe to Ti and change my current feeling, I do play with that part of me heavily and can confuse the other person

    What do you do best? From my perspective, what IJs do best is to help teach because they have a linear thought pattern. But what is commiting? Is it an external decision or an internal one? I dont wait for a decision to commit. Its the way I am, causes problems, I dont care if the other person commits or not as long as I am happy I have no problem being commited. And so this doesnt get taken the wrong way, my commitment is to help the other person so its not a one way streak. If I get stepped on enough I break my commitment. Im not in this world to be stepped on.

  6. #466
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    highlander - I also liked your summary and think you did a good job. I didn't see anything terribly off; seemed pretty good to me!

    One thought I had though, that probably doesn't need to be said and is implied, but I'll say it anyway is that the bullet point lists might be more accurate if simply listed as 'Fe' and 'Fi' - rather than 'Fe users' and 'Fi users' (although not that the title really matters.. I'm just trying to explain something). The reason I say this is because in some threads dissonance occurs because Fi users note that they adhere to or relate to some Fe bullet points, and vice versa, which raises the possiblity that individually some may have a wider repertoire between both, whereas others only relate to their own preference.

    For example, I identify with almost the entire Fe list, but I also identify very strongly with the first bullet of the Fi list - trying to understand my own emotional state, behaviors, motivations, etc, and striving for that self-awareness. Actually I'd say that's a pretty key component of who I am - really doing a lot of self analysis and all of that.
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  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't know, this is interesting now that I think of it. The clearest example of "our feelings" or collective feelings is morale in a group at work for example and being sensitive to what people are feeling as a cohesive wave of feeling. Or you can go to a party and feel the "vibe" in the atmosphere that people are enjoying themselves. Go to a sporting event and feel the energy of the people. Attend a funeral and feel the sorrow that permeates the atmosphere, or a wedding a feel the joy.

    Places have moods I believe. For example, you can walk past a house in your neighborhood and feel something being emitted from the house and the grounds around it. If it's dilapidated and in poor upkeep it (this inanimate object called a "house") you feel neglect being emitted from it. If it's well kept, even if it's got quirky objects and decorations in the yard you feel that it's still cared for. Same thing with neighborhoods, they give off a certain feeling.

    These are examples of having feelings or receiving feelings from people and things that aren't necessarily yours. I believe these are objective feeling "facts" that I'm not necessarily projecting because they don't hit me otherwise and I can be in a neutral receptive feeling state and have it shift based on things like this.

    Does this make sense? I did believe this was a common phenomenon but is it not?

    I'll try to comment on the rest later.
    The problems I have with this kind of feeling is how easy it is to hide neglect in other areas, by fixing the outward appearance. Modifying how people see you to keep things hidden. Its like an talking to an ENFP co-worker at one point where they used more of a joking comedy style to talk about work screw ups, then seeing her talk on the phone to another co-worker display a different feeling. To me that is fake, but it kinda isnt. Its not fake because that how she moves past things, she is being real. But fixing up things that are external to self to me doesnt properly display feelings. I dont know. I am not trying to judge your judgement of things, I just dont agree with your conclusion. Though I do accept that thats how you feel.

  8. #468
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    And I am actually here to provide perceptions, opinions, feedback, thought, etc. I have no clue what I am learning, thats not really my focus. I know my thought pattern will shift as I interact and I will grow and hoepfully others will as well. But its more about learning about interactions then making a decision as to what Fe and Fi is.

  9. #469
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This is interesting to me. When you say FP's are not random over time, is it due to the more solid internal value framework that is applied consistently (in theory) to everything in their life (= to their decisions), and that, although it will be finetuned as needed, in general will remain solid?
    Potentially, yes. More exactly while an environment will have some effect on them, they, it seems to me, bring their feeling into the environment as an extra, independent consideration. The feeling is meant to be considered as theirs alone, and influential itself as an environmental causal agent. And since there is this assertion of atomism, or at least the appearance of it, I take it for granted that there is a coherence over time. Coherence over time is if not the definition of environmental independence, then at least a logical precondition of that independence.

    EDIT: @Poki: ^ that's "fixed point feeling": feeling as a causal agent in the environment which, at least in conscious fundamental foundation, is not itself (wholly) caused by the environment.

    I don't really understand what you mean by waiting on the 'arrival of an actual decision to commit'. What sorts of decisions/situations are you referring to? (I am not understanding simply because I think once I make a decision, I'm very solid in that. I mean, I'm very closure-oriented and like things settled. FP's - by definition of their external function being a perceiving one - will be rather opposite, so from my perspective I feel the same way with them (or with TP's) - always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision. You know? Obviously though we're referring to completely different things.)
    Me: So we're doing this?
    Fe: Yes!
    Me: Righto, lets--what?
    Fe: *shudders* Just, can you...
    Me: You don't want to do this?
    Fe: Of course I do. Just--
    Me: No, look, you're upset, or something?
    Fe: Let's go! We're doing this!
    Me: What?! No! You're like--
    Fe: Just do it!
    Me: Are you sure!
    Fe: I'm SURE!!!
    Me: Okay.
    Fe: *shudders*
    Me: Faaa--, c'mon, seriously, you don't want to do this at all, do you?!

    Etc.


    It's not that there isn't commitment. It's that commission goes haywire. I imagine that this can be overcome by adequate consultation, but my (limited) experience is that even when there is consultation, it is extremely easy to simply not hear what the other side is saying. We are, after all, talking about competing judgment functions. If one side has made a decision about what is right and the other side comes along with a different decision made under terms that the other side doesn't subscribe to...
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  10. #470
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    The problems I have with this kind of feeling is how easy it is to hide neglect in other areas, by fixing the outward appearance. Modifying how people see you to keep things hidden. Its like an talking to an ENFP co-worker at one point where they used more of a joking comedy style to talk about work screw ups, then seeing her talk on the phone to another co-worker display a different feeling. To me that is fake, but it kinda isnt. Its not fake because that how she moves past things, she is being real. But fixing up things that are external to self to me doesnt properly display feelings. I dont know. I am not trying to judge your judgement of things, I just dont agree with your conclusion. Though I do accept that thats how you feel.
    I'm not really sure what you mean. Maybe I'm not explaining this correctly. I'm not talking about "the shape of things" judging by outward appearances. I'm talking about the feeling impressions I receive from a collective group of people.

    It's like when I was younger and would spend the night at a friend's house, there were certain friends I preferred being in their home and with their families than other friends. Their family as a group of people gave me a certain feeling that I didn't have before coming into contact with them. The individual friend was not a problem, but once the family as a whole unit was together the feeling of the thing changed. Like maybe I felt that I should be more "proper" because that's how their family seemed to deal with each other. It could be simple clues like how they ate dinner together...how formal the process was. Was the TV going and conversation was happening that didn't consist of asking everyone how their day was in turn. How comfortable and intimate did they naturally seem with each other. Did they ask "please pass the peas" or did they just reach over each other and grab the food. How comfortable did they seem being in each others space or did it seem awkward. The flow and ribbons between the people did they feel knotted or were they smooth. These are external input points but the way they hit me was how the family felt, together.

    Yeah, people can fake it, but I don't think you can fake a certain level of intimacy because it will feel like a road full of potholes. When I was a barista at Starbucks you could tell the people who were new on the espresso bar because their movements didn't flow, they couldn't move fast in a rush and not miss a beat. When people are interacting with each other and I'm in an observational mode, I feel like I can see the flow between them. Assess their comfort levels with each other and between each other. When I'm interacting with them as well, I lose some of this particular perspective, but then I gain the one of how I flow with a person 1:1.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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