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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #451
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Gah..I feel like my head is going to explode. It's just the nature of some of these questions - I almost can't even comprehend them, so I don't even know how to answer them. I don't think I can give you a specific example as to how I solve a problem or whatnot. I am being totally honest in that I really don't find any of this complicated in real life - I mean, I don't. You can take away from that however you choose, but I don't think I have a surefire way of solving problems. It's dependent on the problem at hand and I go from there. My notion of a person or idea or situation adjusts as more data comes in. I'm not affixing a given System/theory to a given person or situation-- my idea and concept of any overarching system/idea changes as I gain new info from the 'real world'. And yes, I would ideally like to come to some surefire definitive answer when it comes to most things - I probably aim for that - but the nature of many complex problems (psychology, for example) is such that one definitive answer might not, well, exist.



    I finetune my idea of mbti or whatever other internal concept/framework I've decided/concluded upon based on new incoming feedback/info. New people/situations/whatever add more data -- to either support existing ideas, or to make me realize I need to finetune existing ideas or re-work everything completely.

    As for what I evaluate...honestly... gah. I don't know what the hell I evaluate. If based on mbti, I'm supposed to be evaluating something, then I'll let you decide what I'm evaluating. (This is kind of tongue in cheek... but really.. these sorts of discussions sometimes make me feel like I have to explain everything about myself in a way such as to agree with the prescribed mbti function order that I must have according to theory).
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Damn you, Kalach! You beat me to this. I was wondering if this is something of a Ti/Te thing. Just as (as it’s been expressed in this thread) Fi likes to have states of being acknowledged, whereas Fe’ers have expressed they think whatever feeling they are having in the moment isn’t of much consequence- Ti sees a nuance in the construct being discussed that Ti’ers want to acknowledge, and Te’ers think it isn’t of enough consequence to make a big deal of? (That’s kind of what you were saying, right?)

    I agree with everything cascadeco has written. I find mbti useful, but constantly notice that it isn’t all encompassing. I’ve noticed a trend in Ti-heavy INFJs more or less agreeing on this point**- which in itself is an example of how it’s consistencies can shed light on useful information about understanding people. It’s just that there are inconsistencies that are distracting, and I can understand application of the word ‘dangerous’- though I’m also having a hard time explaining why. For me, it has to do with the tendency in our society to mistake all the speculation we’ve accumulated thus far as indisputable ‘facts’ about the human mind.

    **To be clear: not all Ti-heavy INFJs, but the people who regularly comment in this direction are often Tish INFJs.
    The thing is, it sounds like values talk. It sounds like, if I may attempt a translation, "MBTI is all well and good, but there is something more important to be attended to." It sounds like an assertion that answers to important questions come first and foremost from people. People themselves are the fundamental measure of what people are, and you can't take that away from them, grrr!

    And presumably, for the Fe team, "people themselves" means what people do whereas the Fi team will take "people themselves" to refer to something intrinsic, perhaps, as far as action is concerned, intention.




    Personally I think Jungian typology does apply at some level. By default I assume it applies to all people. I assume also that almost no one understands "functions" well enough to know if or how they can explain all behavior, and few people have an adequate grasp on what it is to have a dynamic functional system be the basis of a consciousness. That second point is where my primary interest lies, I think, the impersonal mechanism of personal consciousness, people being interesting objects and my preference in judgment tending more toward applicable impersonal systems.

    That people don't know the limits and true applicability of Jungian typology, and that it does seem to have some applicability... these are the two things that keep me interested in the topic. There are puzzles to solve, tools to gain, and gigantic overarching world encompassing visions to have.

    And who knows, maybe a date once in a while.
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  2. #452
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The thing is, it sounds like values talk. It sounds like, if I may attempt a translation, "MBTI is all well and good, but there is something more important to be attended to." It sounds like an assertion that answers to important questions come first and foremost from people. People themselves are the fundamental measure of what people are, and you can't take that away from them, grrr!

    And presumably, for the Fe team, "people themselves" means what people do whereas the Fi team will take "people themselves" to refer to something intrinsic, perhaps, as far as action is concerned, intention.




    Personally I think Jungian typology does apply at some level. By default I assume it applies to all people. I assume also that almost no one understands "functions" well enough to know if or how they can explain all behavior, and few people have an adequate grasp on what it is to have a dynamic functional system be the basis of a consciousness. That second point is where my primary interest lies, I think, the impersonal mechanism of personal consciousness, people being interesting objects and my preference in judgment tending more toward applicable impersonal systems.

    That people don't know the limits and true applicability of Jungian typology, and that it does seem to have some applicability... these are the two things that keep me interested in the topic. There are puzzles to solve, tools to gain, and gigantic overarching world encompassing visions to have.

    And who knows, maybe a date once in a while.
    But when you take Fi as being intrinsic how much of yourself do you automatically assign to these people? I wish I could explain better, but the best example I could use is Satine saying she has a mirror inside, that mirror is created internally, so everything that bounces off that mirror is in a way shaped by her intrinsic value system.

  3. #453
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    The following is a summary of what I think I have learned from this thread. I'm sure I have missed a bunch of stuff but there is a lot there.

    1. The need for a common language - One of the things that occurs to me is that there are a lot of different terms thrown around that are related. Emotions, passions, values, feeling, feeling function, Fe, Fi, etc. It seems difficult to arrive at conclusions without a clear set of definitions and understanding of terminology. I think there might be a lot of confusion between sensing, intuition, feeling and thinking in general - with one being mistaken for the other. I look at my own language - I say "I feel", "I think", "I believe", "My sense is" etc. etc. I don't really differentiate between these things very well in my own communications. I use different words because I don't want to be repetitive vs. assigning precise meaning.

    2. My feelings/your feelings vs. our feelings - It's been solidified in this thread but previously, I don't think I fully understood the Fe perspective. I used to think that we all individually had our own feelings. I'm not sure I understood the importance of the concept of "our feelings." I have come to understand that Fe types tend look at collective feelings - or "our feelings" - and that this is an important perspective to consider. Also, and I could be leaping to a conclusion but people who prefer Fi seem to understand their own feelings better than the feelings of others and people who prefer Fe seem to understand the feelings of other people better than their own.

    3. Understanding dominant intuitives - I've come to understand a lot more about INFJs than I did before and the similarities that exist due to sharing the same dominant function. Both INTJs and INFJs seem like a "mastermind" type to me - just oriented in different directions. I've also learned something about my own sensitivities and theirs - what may cause us to be offended. Finally, I've learned that sometimes when we communicate a "perspective shift" that it may take time for others to absorb what we are saying. If we desire for our perspective to be understood, follow up two way communication is helpful to elaborate or expound upon the ideas and transform them into something that is concrete enough for the other person to assimilate and do something with.

    4. The Fe/Fi conflict is not just about those two functions - What's at play in this ongoing set of discussions and debates involves much more than a difference in those two functions. If we were to compare an ISFP, ENFP, INFP and INFJ for example - there are enormous differences in function preferences and function order. Those differences can lead to misunderstandings or miscommunication.

    5. But the conflicts/differences on Fe/Fi are quite real - These are the things I've heard:
    - Fi users don't feel that Fe users (and perhaps Te users) allow them to communicate in a way they prefer to communicate.
    - Fe types and Fi types both feel judged and unappreciated by the other at times - setting off sensitivities and projections
    - Fi personal values are abstract to Fe types - they want Fi types to communicate their values in a more concrete way
    - Fe types are frustrated with what they perceive as inflexibility of the Fi types to consider the perspectives of others
    - Fi types feel threatened by Fe social dynamics (a game they don't want to play)
    - (EDIT) Fi types feel that Fe type's orientation towards decisions that support group norms, consensus, or harmony can sometimes lead to problems not being confronted or addressed

    6. How Fe is different than Fi - Well, the dialogue and results could be more conclusive but it does appear the two processes operate differently. In particular, what I struggle with is my perception that a lot of the articulated Fe perspectives seem to be Fe + Ni. Here is my shot at synthesizing what's been said or what I understand (without the Ni bias)

    General comments:
    - The higher in the function order is Fi, the less likely a person is to care about systematizing the outer human environment, and by default the less able they are to systematize that outer environment, while the higher the Fe, the more likely the person is to care about outer organization and engage in organizational activity.
    - Fi and Fe may often result in the same behavioral pattern-for very different underlying motivations.
    - Fi and Fe may often result in drastically different behavioral patterns-for very different underlying motivations.
    - Fi and Fe may result in drastically different behavioral patterns-for very similar underlying motivations.

    Interaction styles are important in understanding how Fe or Fi manifests itself:
    http://www.interstrength.com/content/interaction_styles


    Fe users
    - seek to understand others behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs
    - are ruled by objective and more broadly accepted values
    - express emotion with intentionality and forethought for optimal effect
    - seek to objectively understand the feelings of others
    - have a harder time confronting others; are more diplomatic
    - seek harmony with others
    - are more practical; willing to make compromises
    - focus on understanding how the group works, connects, gets along (or doesn’t) and all of their views, decides what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while accommodating the most people
    - assess consistency of behavior of individuals and behavior with social protocols
    - focus on observable patterns of behaviors and motivations that others seem have
    - are focused on the dynamics of how people relate to each other
    - focus on how decisions, actions, or expressed opinions are going to be reacted to, countered or felt by others and weighing benefits and costs of the course of action

    Fi users
    - seek to understand their own behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs
    - are ruled by their own subjective and personal values
    - express emotions they feel strongly about without as much intentionality and forethought about optimal effect
    - project their experience with feelings onto the other person to understand them
    - have an easier time confronting others; are more brash
    - seek harmony with self
    - are more idealistic; less willing to make compromises
    - focus on understanding how they feel, decides what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while maintaining their own sense of personal integrity
    - assess incongruities of behavior of individuals with self (i.e. are they authentic)
    - focus on how behaviors and motivations of others are the same or different than their own
    - focus on being true to who they are
    - focus on how decisions, actions or expressed opinions are going to be consistent with their own beliefs, values, and personal convictions

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  4. #454
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Fe users
    - seek to understand others behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs
    - are ruled by objective and more broadly accepted values
    - express emotion with intentionality and forethought for optimal effect
    - seek to objectively understand the feelings of others
    - have a harder time confronting others; are more diplomatic
    - seek harmony with others
    - are more practical; willing to make compromises
    - focus on understanding how the group works, connects, gets along (or doesn’t) and all of their views, decides what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while accommodating the most people
    - assess consistency of behavior of individuals and behavior with social protocols
    - focus on observable patterns of behaviors and motivations that others seem have
    - are focused on the dynamics of how people relate to each other
    - focus on how decisions, actions, or expressed opinions are going to be reacted to, countered or felt by others and weighing benefits and costs of the course of action

    Fi users
    - seek to understand their own behaviors, motivations, desires and beliefs
    - are ruled by their own subjective and personal values
    - express emotions they feel strongly about without as much intentionality and forethought about optimal effect
    - project their experience with feelings onto the other person to understand them
    - have an easier time confronting others; are more brash
    - seek harmony with self
    - are more idealistic; less willing to make compromises
    - focus on understanding how they feel, decides what course of action is most amenable to the intended goal while maintaining their own sense of personal integrity
    - assess incongruities of behavior of individuals with self (i.e. are they authentic)
    - focus on how behaviors and motivations of others are the same or different than their own
    - focus on being true to who they are
    - focus on how decisions, actions or expressed opinions are going to be consistent with their own beliefs, values, and personal convictions
    Weren't these the descriptions of Fe and Fi from those threads Jag started?

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  5. #455
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Weren't these the descriptions of Fe and Fi from those threads Jag started?

    No. I'm afraid not. Why? Do they look similar?

    Edit: I have the book he copied them from. I can look but not tonight.

    Edit Edit: Well, I just looked. There are a lot of similar concepts. Different words. That book is a lot more detailed. Maybe there is a lot of stuff missing above. The book is "Building Blocks of Personality Type" by Leona Haas and Mark Hunziker. I actually recommend it for anyone who wants to get into more detail on this stuff.

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  6. #456
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    But when you take Fi as being intrinsic how much of yourself do you automatically assign to these people? I wish I could explain better, but the best example I could use is Satine saying she has a mirror inside, that mirror is created internally, so everything that bounces off that mirror is in a way shaped by her intrinsic value system.
    Dunno. At least ideologically I'll always maintain that I'm being objective so when it comes to judging other people's feeling, what I consciously have available is not much more than "Oh, there's a fixed point in the decision landscape--it may change later but currently I'm supposed to incorporate that person's decision, it makes a difference to whether or not s/he's involved with what we're doing next.."

    That's what's difficult about dealing with Fe people. You guys don't offer fixed point feeling. Ironically enough, the appearance is of feeling changing unexpectedly. The shifting consensus becomes the focus rather than what I'd prefer as the focus, impersonal determination. I can't do what I do best then. I'm always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision to commit, but it's forever changing!
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    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That's what's difficult about dealing with Fe people. You guys don't offer fixed point feeling. Ironically enough, the appearance is of feeling changing unexpectedly. The shifting consensus becomes the focus rather than what I'd prefer as the focus, impersonal determination. I can't do what I do best then. I'm always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision to commit, but it's forever changing!
    What type was Bill Clinton again?

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  8. #458
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Dunno, I'm not American.

    But you mean FPs are random, yeah? But that's the whole point! They're not random over time. There's a consistency that can (eventually) be relied on.

    Presumably it's the same with Ti people. There's a consistency of thought over time that can be relied on for... whatever it is that FJs rely on Ti consistency for.




    (And ps, nice summary up at #453. I too was struck by how we're closing in on descriptions that match the standard descriptions. But the discussion is making the descriptions real.


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    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Dunno, I'm not American.

    But you mean FPs are random, yeah? But that's the whole point! They're not random over time. There's a consistency that can (eventually) be relied on.

    Presumably it's the same with Ti people. There's a consistency of thought over time that can be relied on for... whatever it is that FJs rely on Ti consistency for.
    I thought he was ENFP but his position tended to shift with the polls which seems to align more with Fe. Hilary is an xNTJ I believe.

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  10. #460
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But you mean FPs are random, yeah? But that's the whole point! They're not random over time. There's a consistency that can (eventually) be relied on.

    Presumably it's the same with Ti people. There's a consistency of thought over time that can be relied on for... whatever it is that FJs rely on Ti consistency for.
    This is interesting to me. When you say FP's are not random over time, is it due to the more solid internal value framework that is applied consistently (in theory) to everything in their life (= to their decisions), and that, although it will be finetuned as needed, in general will remain solid?

    For myself - as also mentioned in one of the bullet points in highlander's list - I'm very very consistent in my behaviors and such, and have a 'method' to decision-making. Does it make sense to me? Perhaps that's the Ti element in place of Fi. Fi in evaluating things might ask, 'Does it line up with who I am?', whereas I might go, 'Does it make sense? Does it make sense to do this in this given situation? Or does it make absolutely no sense at all? Is there a Point/purpose in this in the grand scheme of things as per my goals, relationships, what I want out of them, etc.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach
    That's what's difficult about dealing with Fe people. You guys don't offer fixed point feeling. Ironically enough, the appearance is of feeling changing unexpectedly. The shifting consensus becomes the focus rather than what I'd prefer as the focus, impersonal determination. I can't do what I do best then. I'm always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision to commit, but it's forever changing!
    I don't really understand what you mean by waiting on the 'arrival of an actual decision to commit'. What sorts of decisions/situations are you referring to? (I am not understanding simply because I think once I make a decision, I'm very solid in that. I mean, I'm very closure-oriented and like things settled. FP's - by definition of their external function being a perceiving one - will be rather opposite, so from my perspective I feel the same way with them (or with TP's) - always waiting on the arrival of an actual decision. You know? Obviously though we're referring to completely different things.)
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