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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #441
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wrote a big thing about what Orobas was asking regarding how we make a cohesive system out of all the bits that we put together and then lost it! For me, I see it like a Christmas tree which I am adding decorations to. I may buy a box of decorations, but only some fit my needs for that particular tree. Even if the ornaments in the package may all be of a similar stye, perhaps the colour, shape or size of some fit better than others to make a cohesive whole. There is nothing wrong with tinsel or angels, or bells or lights or whatever kinds of ornaments there are. Not one in and of itself though is going to be sufficient to provide the variety and balance required for an aesthetically pleasing tree (which is one of the main purposes of the tree). When I decorate, all the ornaments and trimmings need to fit together in a balanced manner and they need to be adaptable to the needs of that particular tree (certain branches being sparse, assymetricallity, what kind of top there is for the angel to go on etc). The tree is what is most important, not the ornaments (elements of a system).

    Therefore, I see some great things about MBTI, function theory, enneagram, but I also believe that all have limitations because each person of a certain category may exhibit some unique characteristics depending on their life experiences, interactions with other people and desire to accommodate. For example, because EJCC is an ESTJ who grew up with NT and NF parents, she has a different way of interacting with those types than an ESTJ who may have grown up only around SJs. An ENTP that decides there is value in having harmonious relationships with the people at work may make it a priority to understand how to work with NFPs instead of purposefully poking their buttons for their own amusement. Depending on the kind of earlier experiences someone has, they may be more closed or open, more secure or insecure. This of course will affect all of their interactions. Therefore, I see the systems as having useful elements for giving a shorthand to discuss differences as well as pointing me in the right general direction for deciding how to interact with a certain type, but I am very aware that it is only a general guide, not a definitive one.

    Maybe it's a bit like a car that comes out of the factory as a standard model, but which can have a variety of different extra elements added. The basic framework is the same, but it may be a luxury model, an economy model, be more aesthetically pleasing, have a custom paintjob or tires, be more sporty, have certain amenities etc. It's still a car and understanding how that make and model of a car works is useful, but the extras are also important to differentiate between as well.

    To continue the tree comparison, I believe this is why I am so reluctant to change my internal structure easily when handed new pieces of information that require a complete reworking. I'm willing if I'm convinced of the need, but it's like suggesting an entirely different colour scheme or style of decorating and everything that I've worked so hard on needs to be changed and new items procured which fit equally well. I want to be really convinced that that kind of work is actually necessary before starting in.

  2. #442
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oops! Sent too soon!

    So how I decide what elements are useful are whether they fit into the patterns of my observation, whether they fill the gaps that I don't see explained by anything else, and whether they translate into practical action that makes interactions with other people easier and more effective.

  3. #443
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: as the Fi-user, I feel like I am the one primarily burdened with this task. I think in another thread I said I feel like a universal translator IRL. Te and Fe both speak with such authority that one must enter that space; it's also why, when I try to talk Fi here and get pounced all over, it is so darn frustrating. Like, can't I talk the way I think anywhere? lol
    Listen to the Fe side, PB. They feel like they're the ones bending over backwards to understand/translate.

    I find it interesting, because I feel like I understand both sides (which is why I sense a strong Ne vs. Ni disconnect, entirely different from the Fe vs. Fi disconnect). Personally, I always try to accommodate the others' communication style. If they don't understand version A, maybe they'll get version B. Typology helps me out in terms of figuring out how to articulate A vs. B.

    I think "talking Fi" might be like saying, "Can't I just play heavy metal music really loud and not have anyone complain?!" or "Can't I play Beethoven and not have anyone complain?" Everyone has their tastes. In order to accommodate all tastes, one either needs to express things neutrally (and rather uninterestingly), or state things in several different ways.

    However I choose to express my ideas, it is always "me." I'm not sure why others have a difficulty changing modes of expression. Maybe because to me it just feels like different arbitrary protocols, not a requirement for me to change an integral part of myself.

  4. #444
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    ^^I'd argue that the more Te you have, the easier it is to remodel communication for those on this side of the Te/Fe fence. For me-to rephrase things into a way that I am certain will not offend Fe users-my brain is populated by a list of things I have to do...to be honest I cant keep it straight yet. It is exhausting because it is so different from my native communication style. Fi wants to please others abut Te cant keep the list of things to say in the correct order-i need to write it all down and study it for awhile, practice it a whole bunch to be honest. I need a cheat sheet-a list. Then I need to write down what I want to say, then rephrase into what needs to be said. Also-Fi values sincerity so it takes us quite awhile to doing the math-o-pudding about why we should not say what we would say-but say something else instead. There is some values weighed there...so sometimes we get whiney about it...

    Look at the baby INTJ as an example-he already is mapping out how to talk to people. Not because he has a desire to please but because he is systemizing his interactions with others already to get what he wants.

    I shall go start on my studies....

  5. #445
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Just coming home in the car now, I was thinking. Is Ne sort of like dumping out a big box of different stuff and sorting it a bit at a time? Like if Ne sorted it all by shape first and said, "Here! I have now distinguished between the different types of objects that were in this box!" and Ni protested by saying, "What are you talking about? These are all different colours and sizes. You're oversimplifying!" and Ne argued that all those other factors make it too complicated. As Ne goes, it then does a second round for size and a third for colour etc and ends up arriving at the same conclusions? I'm not sure if that is even close, but I'm wondering. I have less experience looking at Ne/Ni differences.

  6. #446
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just coming home in the car now, I was thinking. Is Ne sort of like dumping out a big box of different stuff and sorting it a bit at a time? Like if Ne sorted it all by shape first and said, "Here! I have now distinguished between the different types of objects that were in this box!" and Ni protested by saying, "What are you talking about? These are all different colours and sizes. You're oversimplifying!" and Ne argued that all those other factors make it too complicated. As Ne goes, it then does a second round for size and a third for colour etc and ends up arriving at the same conclusions? I'm not sure if that is even close, but I'm wondering. I have less experience looking at Ne/Ni differences.
    This is what I think some of the differences are:

    Ne

    Objective, reality oriented
    Possibilities
    Dispersed
    Short term

    Ni
    Subjective, meaning oriented
    Answers
    Focused
    Long term

    As Uumlau said, I think the Ti vs Te preference is also a big part of this too.

    Wait - but does this mean that much of the Fe/Fi debate isn't about those two functions at all? It's about other differences?

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is what I think some of the differences are:

    Ne

    Objective, reality oriented
    Possibilities
    Dispersed
    Short term

    Ni
    Subjective, meaning oriented
    Answers
    Focused
    Long term

    As Uumlau said, I think the Ti vs Te preference is also a big part of this too.

    Wait - but does this mean that much of the Fe/Fi debate isn't about those two functions at all? It's about other differences?
    Here's what I think of Ne and Ni:

    Ne: weaving together the common underlying thread in divergent situations/cultures/subjects, clarifying the ultimate underlying pattern, brainstorming random possibilities, making wacky humorous connections and silly imaginative nonsense

    Ni: tenacious vision for long-term goals or the definitive future/end of a situation etc., examining a single situation or subject or behavior from every possible angle, grasping underlying meanings similar to Ne but rather picking out motive or "why" instead of "how they're all connected," conspiracies about Russian spies and space aliens

  8. #448
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Listen to the Fe side, PB. They feel like they're the ones bending over backwards to understand/translate.

    I find it interesting, because I feel like I understand both sides (which is why I sense a strong Ne vs. Ni disconnect, entirely different from the Fe vs. Fi disconnect). Personally, I always try to accommodate the others' communication style. If they don't understand version A, maybe they'll get version B. Typology helps me out in terms of figuring out how to articulate A vs. B.

    I think "talking Fi" might be like saying, "Can't I just play heavy metal music really loud and not have anyone complain?!" or "Can't I play Beethoven and not have anyone complain?" Everyone has their tastes. In order to accommodate all tastes, one either needs to express things neutrally (and rather uninterestingly), or state things in several different ways.

    However I choose to express my ideas, it is always "me." I'm not sure why others have a difficulty changing modes of expression. Maybe because to me it just feels like different arbitrary protocols, not a requirement for me to change an integral part of myself.
    +1 When I'm in a Fe/Fi thread, I'm more prone to argue the Fe side. But IRL, I'm usually the one seeking to translate and be the peacemaker, too. It's impossible for me not to see where someone else is coming from, especially if I'm not the one they're arguing with.
    Something Witty

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I feel like I understand both sides
    This.

    "talking Fi" might be like saying, "Can't I just play heavy metal music really loud and not have anyone complain?!"
    Yeah, I see this too. It annoys. I say that because my attitude is, well, at least I admit I can be a bitch, at least I admit at times I'm being inappropriate or annoying, and I don't expect everyone to like it.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: as the Fi-user, I feel like I am the one primarily burdened with this task. I think in another thread I said I feel like a universal translator IRL. Te and Fe both speak with such authority that one must enter that space; it's also why, when I try to talk Fi here and get pounced all over, it is so darn frustrating. Like, can't I talk the way I think anywhere? lol
    Just as an aside, I've paid attention to some of your posts and you appear to be somewhat surrounded by ExxJs, and as an IxxP you may feel drowned out. I simply wonder if this is really an Fi/Fe issue, or you just feel like you're not able to assert yourself the way you'd like to IRL.

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