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  1. #421
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Actually, I think it's the Ne/Si, and not a little bit of Te, that is bothering you here far more than the Fi.

    When talking about the loud, prominent, typological frequencies, especially in Te mode, I imagine that's rather offensive to your Ti approach: so many details are being missed, it isn't just that one frequency. The thing is, the other details aren't being "missed" so much as they're "not the topic of discussion." The other details aren't part of the overall pattern. So they don't get mentioned, even in passing, and thus missing Ti-style qualification that "well, it's just typology, not a detailed psychological profile" - it offends you that the qualification isn't made.

    Keep in mind that the "huge error" you are perceiving is a result of different communication styles. When I discuss things with Oro in person, I'll interject that it's more complicated than what she's saying, and she'll reply that she's aware of that, but that looking at it in that level of detail hides the pattern.

    Similarly, NiFe and NeFi have two different starting points. Eventually they converge at the truth, but there is a need for patience as one waits for that to happen. It's a good thing, actually: it covers a lot more ground, as you can tell by how much effort it takes to reach a meeting of the minds!

    In this instance, however, I will use the "you" word, Fidelia: you have impressed me very greatly with your efforts at coming to an understanding of this awkward topic, which is so very very easy to take too personally.
    Yes - I thought the Ne/Te thing as well. All of these things seem right.

    And Fidelia - You have some of the most astonishing depth of insight about people and human relations of anybody I know. It's very obvious how much time, energy, and effort you put into understanding both sides and communicating in a way to accomodate. There is no question that you have very much gone out of your way on this. It's important because I think it does facilitate the dialogue on some difficult subjects and has a significant impact on helping people to understand each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Totally!!!!


    Kalach - as to why specifically I think it's 'dangerous'. Firstly, 'dangerous' is a loaded word and I probably should have used another one. Secondly, many are focusing on the phrase 'why I thought it was 'dangerous' to apply mbti to all human behavior and such' and converting that to equal my thinking applying mbti to human behavior is dangerous, period. Not true. Every single little word I include in a sentence is key. If you gloss over a word, it destroys the context/meaning of what I'm trying to say. So in this particular phrase, the word 'ALL' is key. I'm saying it's dangerous to utilize mbti to describe ALL human behavior. And, in the end, I'm guessing many FiTe users would agree with that.

    It really boils down to finding the true causation/root problem of things. So, if one would use mbti/function theory to describe and explain everything going wrong in an interaction, while mbti might be playing a role in some of the problems, it very well may be that the *actual* real problem - the truth of the matter - is that someone has \ narcissistic personality disorder, or has severe social anxiety, or grew up with a mother who was domineering and now has a total aversion/defense mechanism built up against those types and that's therefore impacted his or her interaction style and tolerance level much more than mbti accounts for.... etc. My being pretty unpopular and friendless growing up, and heavy into the maths and sciences and those sorts of things, is going to mean I'm an incredibly different sort of INFJ than some of my other INFJ friends who struggle with different sorts of problems and who also have very different Conflict styles - for example I go incredibly quiet and overanalyze, my INFJ friend escalates towards anger and saying things in the heat of the moment. VERY different, in other words. Those sorts of things.

    Also - functions do not equal behavior. There are trends between function and behavior, but there's a lot of overlap. So it's not a 1:1 mapping of one function = one behavior, another function = opposite behavior.

    So basically - mbti is useful, yes. But it may drastically miss the mark if one would depend on it to explain everything, and in doing so, would begin formulating all of ones' intuitions and interactions with people based on it alone. Might result in starting on a faulty premise. So when I read statements on the forum that begin 'INFJ's do this behavior', 'ISTP's do that', whatever... I immediately think of the ones who don't do that, and aren't represented by what is being said. What I DO find useful in terms of mbti discussion and application is purely cognitive - INFJ's tend to approach/think about these things this way (nothing to do with resultant behavior), Fe as a cognitive process is this, Fe approaching Te's should think of the fact that Te's approach and see the world in such and such way, Ni doms are similar in that they both xyz, when Ni doms interact with Si doms it should be remembered that Si doms instead assimilate information and view the world in abc way. It sounds like Orobas uses mbti in this way in some of her Examples, but in other examples, such as the one I questioned her on, I didn't understand what she was assuming or thinking. I realize I sound really soap-boxy and I apologize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So again-just because the system will break down and points and fail to be complete-is that reason to not attempt to use the system at all? Is it okay to push the system to the breaking point? then fill in the gaps with understanding of the particular individual?
    I think the danger is that when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It may not be a nail. That is the problem with MBTI. The concern relates to the application and appropriateness of use in the situation at hand. People who know MBTI very well and don't know other things tend to want to overuse it.

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  2. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    And Fidelia - You have some of the most astonishing depth of insight about people and human relations of anybody I know. It's very obvious how much time, energy, and effort you put into understanding both sides and communicating in a way to accomodate. There is no question that you have very much gone out of your way on this. It's important because I think it does facilitate the dialogue on some difficult subjects and has a significant impact on helping people to understand each other.
    This

  3. #423
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmmm-check out the post about Ne above....I think this is poking at the diff between Ne-Si and Ni-Se. The people at large means apply what i learn to large groups -of individuals-so I MUST have generic things to apply-then remold to the individual. Te builds generic rules, Fi adapts to the individual. Perhaps for an INFJ-Fe builds generic rules and Ti adapts to the individual? I dunno...
    First off - taking a step back, I just want to say that my understanding of how to interact with people - and knowledge of various types and that everyone has different approaches and such - hasn't changed upon learning of mbti. So, I already had my own tools and own idea of types prior to learning of mbti or slapping cognitive function names to these vague processes I already kinda observed irl. It was more intuitive, though. Mbti has been interesting in that I have a name to put onto these vague things.

    Secondly, I'm not sure that in the end I'm approaching it a whole lot differently from you (although maybe I am)- although obviously we communicate these things really differently and misinterpret what we're saying. I too notice overarching patterns. So yeah, I have this high-level idea in the back of my mind - all of these various 'types' of people - and which is the one I'm interacting with at the moment? I'll learn more as I interact. But my 'types' go beyond just mbti types. There are subtypes, there are non-mbti-types (i.e. related to character traits, etc), there are interaction-style types, whatever. I don't even have a name for some of this, it's just fuzzy notions in my mind.. and I don't need a name. Mbti is just one of the things, in other words.

    I don't know that I start out with some generic thing to apply, which I then tailor to the individual. I start out with all of these high level overlays/patterns in my mind - just awareness & information, really - and then see where the person might go. I might end up having to chuck some elements of mbti theory because they don't really pertain or other non-mbti 'types' pertain to them better. So mbti for me is useful information- it's another mode of describing people. But I don't go into things with only that mode in mind, nor with the drive to apply the theory to the person. The person might apply to the theory, though. Or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach
    So anyway, I don't know how to see the world as a system of relationships because although relationships exist, they're "unique". Which isn't in the least bit true, is it? It's just that I'm not attending to the formal aspects of people related to people. I'm imposing a view of specialness on each person, that they have some significant affective subjective component... and it might be dangerous to suggest too much form inheres in the way people relate... one might start with faulty formalisms..........
    Relationships are unique but relationships can also fall into various categories/types. Relationship dynamics fall into patterns too - not only how the two relate and interact with one another, but how they VIEW/perceive what the relationship is. It's like the relationship becomes a separate entity. You have Individual 1, Individual 2, and the Relationship. Three things going on.

    Although each relationship has its unique nuances, there are themes. For example, I might have the same sort of 'dynamic' with an ENTP as I have with an INTJ or an INFJ. The manner in which we approach the relationship - what we want out of it, how we view it, how our needs are met, etc - might be identical so I interact pretty seamlessly with all three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach
    The possibility of faulty premises isn't going to bug me as much because I'm working from, more or less, a checklist. X premise is dumb if there is no way to say it describes the world, Y premise is good if there is some way, and so on.

    One presumes then that Fe has a similar shortcut available. The whole Fi rigmarole of making all the subjective checks to determine the coherence of a given feeling is unnecessary because........ [something]

    So what's a good way of finishing that sentence? I totally don't know because I normally assume other people are without determinate feeling relationships to one another. I mean, I expect people to be coherent, but I also expect them to be discrete.
    I'm not even sure how to respond to this! For starters, I don't even know what 'determining the coherence of a given feeling' even means.
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  4. #424
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Umlauu and highlander - sorry I was out for the morning and now your comments are several pages back, but I wanted to say how much I appreciated them. Good summary highlander - that's one of the things I love about Te users. I have to talk all of it out before I am able to come to a concise distillation. It's like saying stuff helps me wade through what is relevant and what is extra. Also, umlauu - I had never ever considered how Ne could influence things. Typically there are very few Ne/Ni discussions and I'm still a little hazy about how Ne worked although I have a hazy general impression. I know how my own Ni seems to work, but it's fascinating for me to see how it helps me identify with INTJs while they also have those other functions thrown in there that change things up. I need to reread your comments a couple of times but when I read what you wrote it did resonate that this was a likely cause of the tangled up threads for me.

    Thanks for your kind words. I was reluctant to say anything in a way since it sort of sounds like I'm saying I'm good or something, which was not my intention. It's more that I see this often being an issue for me when Fi users make sweeping statements about "the mods" but when we talk individually, I realize that they don't mean anything personal by it. Because it keeps coming up I wanted to understand where it is that we diverge and how I can see it in such a light that I don't react as strongly to it.

    Cascadeco, I think you make a good point. For me, MBTI is a useful tool in terms of discussing some of the common places where people's viewpoints differ - a kind of shorthand for discussion. At the same time, I think I am more inclined to agree with you that the approach really needs to be tailored for each individual. I like the idea of finding observable patterns of how people are likely to approach things or how the world may look from their vantage point, but I think it is very important to remember that experiences, individual tendancies, and desire also shape the way that people relate. One size doesn't fit all. Even this forum is a great example of what a range of difference there is among individuals of any given type. The INFJs on here exhibit a wide range of varying characteristics and interaction styles, beliefs and emphasis, even though they may hold some approaches or values in common.

  5. #425
    darkened dreams Array labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    And Fidelia - You have some of the most astonishing depth of insight about people and human relations of anybody I know. It's very obvious how much time, energy, and effort you put into understanding both sides and communicating in a way to accomodate. There is no question that you have very much gone out of your way on this. It's important because I think it does facilitate the dialogue on some difficult subjects and has a significant impact on helping people to understand each other.
    I notice this as well and it is an enormous help in communication for everyone.

    I don't think actual Fe is something easily grasped either, although I've rarely read a comment to that effect. People usually assume they get it because it is socially based and everyone has social encounters on which they make judgments.
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  6. #426
    Magical Array BlackCat's Avatar
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    Hey, it's this thread again.

    Basically, my thoughts on this issue-

    1. Fi is only discussed in terms of NFPs. These posts about Fi and complaints about Fi reek of FiNe or FiSi.
    2. A lot of the issues I observe in these threads seem to come from Fi vs Ti -OR- Fe vs Te. Not just Fi vs Fe.

    My thoughts on Fe vs Fi-

    When it comes to "rules," Fe users seem to be more concerned about rudeness than social efficiency. I think that this roots from Fe and Te. I think that both Fe and Fi are concerned with harmony, but the roots of desiring this harmony are what occasionally conflict. It seems like Fe users have this Ti standard of what's "appropriate" while Fi users have a Te standard of "whatever works" and this can conflict.

    It really doesn't seem to be as complicated as you guys make it to be imo. The issues themselves are complicated because it goes against our nature to understand the other side, but where it's coming from isn't that complicated.
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  7. #427
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes! Annwyn, you are the first person I've heard say that but I was thinking over that the other night. The more that I'm learning about Te, the more I think that it is largely oversimplified as well. I believe it takes into account more things than I originally gave it credit for. I don't think the extroverted/introverted functions are even a dichotomy of breadth/depth as I once maybe did. I believe they both cover a tremendous amount of both, but in different spheres or areas of information.

  8. #428
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Hey, it's this thread again.

    Basically, my thoughts on this issue-

    1. Fi is only discussed in terms of NFPs. These posts about Fi and complaints about Fi reek of FiNe or FiSi.
    2. A lot of the issues I observe in these threads seem to come from Fi vs Ti -OR- Fe vs Te. Not just Fi vs Fe.

    My thoughts on Fe vs Fi-

    When it comes to "rules," Fe users seem to be more concerned about rudeness than social efficiency. I think that this roots from Fe and Te. I think that both Fe and Fi are concerned with harmony, but the roots of desiring this harmony are what occasionally conflict. It seems like Fe users have this Ti standard of what's "appropriate" while Fi users have a Te standard of "whatever works" and this can conflict.

    It really doesn't seem to be as complicated as you guys make it to be imo. The issues themselves are complicated because it goes against our nature to understand the other side, but where it's coming from isn't that complicated.
    Nice summary. I actually am interested in the other varieties of Fi too BC, but find that there are very few representatives of it that are interested in these kinds of threads.

  9. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think the danger is that when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It may not be a nail. That is the problem with MBTI. The concern relates to the application and appropriateness of use in the situation at hand. People who know MBTI very well and don't know other things tend to want to overuse it.
    So first-wouldnt this be how you break the system-by pushing it to it's limits to see when it no longer provides a a sufficient answer to the problem at hand? Another factor-as an Ne dom I may be juggling multiple models at any moment-networks trying to connect them to each other in some way. They may never connect, but the natural incliniation is to expand the edges of each-until connections can be made. Ni doms can throw me off very badly as they take whole portions of my grid/lattice/network, pluck it out and drop in one of the revolving Ni contexts-destroying the Si foundation from which i expand off with Ne. MBTI is one such network, one significantly expanded-and on an MBTI forum i will be likely to expand as far as I possibly can looking for breakpoints. NLP is another and on an NLP forum I might desire to expand models there, neuroscience and pharmacology is another, crock pot cooking another. Ne wants them to all be interlinked-but they may never actually be-but I cant stop trying (..I've traveled so faaaarrr!!)

    I am afraid that because I attempt application-and you guys see a big Si lattice-the assumption is that nothing else exists. I dunno though. Is it simple enough to simply state Jungian functions cant describe the world? That's obvious right?

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    First off - taking a step back, I just want to say that my understanding of how to interact with people - and knowledge of various types and that everyone has different approaches and such - hasn't changed upon learning of mbti. So, I already had my own tools and own idea of types prior to learning of mbti or slapping cognitive function names to these vague processes I already kinda observed irl. It was more intuitive, though. Mbti has been interesting in that I have a name to put onto these vague things

    Secondly, I'm not sure that in the end I'm approaching it a whole lot differently from you (although maybe I am)- although obviously we communicate these things really differently and misinterpret what we're saying. I too notice overarching patterns. So yeah, I have this high-level idea in the back of my mind - all of these various 'types' of people - and which is the one I'm interacting with at the moment? I'll learn more as I interact. But my 'types' go beyond just mbti types. There are subtypes, there are non-mbti-types (i.e. related to character traits, etc), there are interaction-style types, whatever. I don't even have a name for some of this, it's just fuzzy notions in my mind.. and I don't need a name. Mbti is just one of the things, in other words.
    When you approach another person you have never met-how do you know what portion of the above applies to them? How can (if you wanted to ) you transfer your understanding of the collection of fuzzy notions to another? How would you share this knowledge? What unifies all of the ideas?

  10. #430
    Magical Array BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Nice summary. I actually am interested in the other varieties of Fi too BC, but find that there are very few representatives of it that are interested in these kinds of threads.
    I'm sure more SFPs and S's in general would be interested in these threads if there was a concrete set of questions we could answer, then get input on those. It makes my head explode trying to figure out how to contribute to these threads most of the time.
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