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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #391
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But when I chatted with the ENTP she discussed her experience with Fe doms-she said she had to stop hanging around with a friend and her church pastor as she was left feeling horribly flawed each time-because they kept telling her how she needed to change everything about herself. Perhaps this is how Fe balances Ti, I really dont know...but the Fe can trigger a nasty shadow Fe response in me, which is very bad as I dont have Ti to internally rationalize and understand the issue. the first time this happened it was very painful, but after that, once I figured out the NeTe pattern, I just sort of sidestep it...understand I am not hearing the message correctly. that is the emo detachment though.
    I understand Fe likes emo (dont listen to ENTPs , if they didnt like it they wouldnt try to pull it out in all these threads ) I hit Fe short term and get back into an understanding Ti, Dom Fe doesnt do this. You just have to be more proactive and pace yourself or be willing to get into an all out rationalizing battle with dom Fe. Its like what you percieve as a huge Ti logic battle, but with how people feel, how things make people feel, etc. I focus on what is said, they have alot of circles as they dont follow though with the logic. Your best bet is to fight using how you really feel when you disagree. Like fighting values with reality.

    edit: Te does rationalize, but its actually a different kind then Ti. Ti is 100% aware of all sides of its rationalizing, Te is more focused in a linear path when it comes to rationalizing.

  2. #392
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Highlander mentioned before that we may be applying our values upon them by seeking very open and honest exposure of feelings such as an Fi user might display...a questionable thing to do and an unfair expectation says my Fi....

    however might it be that simply be expecting Fe value to flex in a way that allows for alternative understandings, by simply expecting them to be open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing the world-we are violating very core Fe values? If Fe is truly felt by an individual Fe user to be a universal moral truth-any alternative worldview becomes morally offensive.
    Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly. Could the following statement also be made then?

    however might it be that simply be expecting Fi value to flex in a way that allows for alternative understandings, by simply expecting them to be open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing the world-we are violating very core Fi values? If Fi is truly felt by an individual Fi user to be their personally held moral truth-any alternative worldview becomes morally offensive.

    In other words, why our how would Fe be different than Fi in this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But the entire thread has sort of been split consistently with all Fe users I have noted -You cant understand people via jungian functional analysis. People are too complicated. To do so is "dangerous". Another topic has been that there isnt much difference between Fi and Fe in the real world and the issues seen are exaggerated.

    The INTJs, myself, and some of the other NFPs are saying on both topics-you know we do this/see this and, while recognizing limitations, it can be done okay, it works, perhaps Fi sees the world in a different way and supplies different information, thus provides an alternatly valid way of viewing the world.

    But this doesnt seem to gain any traction with the Fe users-we keep repeating the same cycle over and over again. Like we cant hear each other properly.

    Thus it is at a point of understanding why we cant hear each other and why we cant see each other-thus the exploration of Ti. My apologies for the value judgment implied by lazy-but when the entp speaks it seems best to quote as directly as possible in case it is meaningful.

    EDIT_Just to emphasize, my apologies if the term was offensive. I think the convo started on your post in particular as it was a very open minded look at the situation-it comes very close to legitimizing two viewpoints, thus it was a productive place to start and a great thought provoking comment. My apologies if it felt that it highlighted you in particular as I do very much respect your thoughts o the subject.
    Re bolded items - I think Orobas has a point. It is what appears to be happening. Fe preferrers - do you disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: as the Fi-user, I feel like I am the one primarily burdened with this task. I think in another thread I said I feel like a universal translator IRL. Te and Fe both speak with such authority that one must enter that space; it's also why, when I try to talk Fi here and get pounced all over, it is so darn frustrating. Like, can't I talk the way I think anywhere? lol

    I don't know how easy it is for the Te or Fe user to do this though. It's contrary somehow to what's perceived as objectivity, even about subjective things. Fe users seem to be the ones saying there's less of a difference than Fi users insist there is. And I, as an Fi-user, do insist there's a difference. IRL, it wouldn't look very obvious though.
    I think I might understand how you feel about Te and Fe speaking with authority and that you have to enter that space. The work world is very Te centric. I have this same reaction with ESTJs who are not particularly appreciative of my Ni driven perspectives (they prefer Si driven ones perhaps). So, people who prefer Ti, Si, Ni could feel the same way right? I wonder how it is any different with Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When you say something like that Orobas, it makes me feel that either 1) those efforts go unnoticed and don't count 2) Fi tends to overgeneralize about some things. I realize the emphasis is more on the feeling behind words rather than specific words, but when working with Fe users that kind of generalization can be really offensive because it is inaccurate and seems to disregard others who are trying very hard. 3) You are seeing people more as types, rather than understanding that type definite impacts their behaviours, but so does their interaction with other people and what they've taken away from them, desire to see things from other perspectives, life experience and exposure to people who use other functions. I think this could be a mistake.
    Well, there is obviously a very strong reaction here. The thing I am interested in understanding is why. What exactly did she say that bothered you so much? Believe it or not, this is not so obvious as you might think which is some of what might lead to the misunderstanding. You don't know what land mines to avoid and so you unknowingly step on one. In observing my own behavior related to this thread for example, I think I react strongly when I feel that my views or I am not being respected. It is an important thing to me. I can over-react when I feel this way in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    In particular I get endlessly picked on, to the point of being told I have mental issues and need to seek consouling because I tend to dissect people interactions in terms of jungian functions. I dont mean to create angst...but I have been hearing these opinions for several months and I am interested in trying to understand why the way I see the world is so incomprehinsible to Fe, when it works so well. I listed a few examples earlier in the thread of how I interact with people and how i apply jungian functions, so i hope those cast more light and context on how I see the world and cut up the people pie, so to speak.
    I thought they were good examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Fe is for codependent busybodies. Fi is for entitled, solipsistic drama queens.
    Shoo

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Your best bet is to fight using how you really feel when you disagree. Like fighting values with reality.
    I really like this. The problem might be though how only one individual feels would be subordinated to the group?

    I told an ESTJ once that "feelings were facts." It seemed pretty straightforward to me. You would have thought I had antennae coming out of my head.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  3. #393
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: as the Fi-user, I feel like I am the one primarily burdened with this task. I think in another thread I said I feel like a universal translator IRL. Te and Fe both speak with such authority that one must enter that space; it's also why, when I try to talk Fi here and get pounced all over, it is so darn frustrating. Like, can't I talk the way I think anywhere? lol
    lol at the bolded. so you are really supressed in how you think, not feel.

    Do you feel when you talk about how you feel?

    A statement I made about a friend about some Fi users is that they dont know how to deal with their own feelings. They instead tend to beat up their feelings, this is their thoughts. What happens is that they then do the same thing to others who feel, basically over riding the other persons thoughts. When someone "feels" someone else and they cant handle the other persons feelings they will respond in the same exact way, by beating it up. This can create a loop of one person not thinking the other person understands, is not listening, does not care as they dont act in a caring manner. In some people this is a natural reaction and until they can accept and deal with things inside they wont be able to deal with other peoples feelings properly without becoming stressed.

    just my 2 cents

    I have trouble talking while I think.

  4. #394
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Highlander - Yes! You get it! I'm not going to unload emotionally on someone just because I have taken offense, and I will look for ways to that explain their behaviour in a more favourable light. However, it doesn't mean that it doesn't bother me.

    You know how it is not immediately obvious to Fe users why saying that someone's feelings aren't reasonable is felt as attacking them at their core? Well, in this particular case, I feel that I've gone to great measures to NOT dismiss Fi users' viewpoints as being invalid. I've worked like crazy on this in a number of threads, purposefully gone through conflict (which I dislike) so that I could find out where our communication styles or interpretations diverge, asked many questions (which to me is a sign that I respect the other person enough to try to understand them), and not stated my thoughts in the language that would initially be my first impulse to.

    O's responses felt to me that she did not take into account the fact that Fe users are all separate individuals, whith different function orders, different experiences, and different levels of interest in bridging that gap. I believe understanding functions explains people's instinctive impulses, but does not conclusively define them. I see Fi users time and time again insisting that Fe users force them into an unfair one size fits all mold when I feel that that's what is being done right back. When I did express as politely, but directly as I could what kind of response that invokes in me (thus seeking further information or perspective rather than jumping to the conclusion that Fi users are selfish or hypocritical), it was mostly glossed over and attention turned back to how Fe users attack Orobas as well as that even though some progress has been made in these threads, it should not take as long as it has.

    I do understand that I need to pay more attention to the feelings behind those words rather than the words themselves. On the other hand, I find it very hard to continue on with discussion if I believe there's been a huge error made and also if I feel that my efforts are trivialized. Maybe it's because a core value of Fe is trying to accommodate and understand. If I feel like I've worked hard to do both and someone basically walks in and says that my efforts don't count for anything, it is going to make me feel like no longer bothering to try or that the other person expects understanding without giving either the information or reciprocation for that to happen. It kind of feels like the person is telling me that something which is a significant part of my identity is something that I am terrible at, and not offering any constructive information beyond that.

    I think from a Fi perspective, it is just that the person is saying how their own experience feels to them. From my perspective it does feel like a negative judgement and not recognizing how out of their way people already are going to try to better understand. I've also noticed in the past that when I bring up issues to Fi users of what really is bothering me, they tend to gloss over them because they are looking at the reason for communicating it as being the same as their own reason would be. In this case, I only bring something up if I need more information or if I feel like there is a roadblock in our communication that needs to be addressed before we can continue on effectively.

    You have no idea, highlander, how something as simple as recognizing the fact that a roadblock has been hit (at least from the other person's perspective) and validating that by asking about it dissipates a lot of the frustration or emotion that would otherwise be directed at you.

    You said highlander that it is not as immediately obvious to you as to why something is a problem for us and then it is like stepping on landmines. I found that interesting with the INFJ Common Issues thread. INFJs were getting increasing frustrated, blunt and direct with an ENFP who in return felt hurt and attacked but wouldn't back off with Te suggestions that had not been invited in the first place and she kept making assertions about INFJs that seemed inaccurate and were lacking key pieces of information. To the INFJs, it seems painfully obvious what was wrong, in fact we thought we had stated and re-stated what was the issue. Someone else later on in the thread said something to her that was stated just slightly differently and all of the sudden, things seemed to come into focus for her. I am interested in investigating further what a few tweaks in language for either side would do in more effectively conveying in effectively translated language where problems are before they become big issues.

  5. #395
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Highlander - Yes! You get it! I'm not going to unload emotionally on someone just because I have taken offense, and I will look for ways to that explain their behaviour in a more favourable light.

    You know how it is not immediately obvious to Fe users why saying that someone's feelings aren't reasonable is felt as attacking them at their core? Well, in this particular case, I feel that I've gone to great measures to NOT dismiss Fi users' viewpoints as being invalid. I've worked like crazy on this in a number of threads, purposefully gone through conflict (which I dislike) so that I could find out where our communication styles or interpretations diverge, asked many questions (which to me is a sign that I respect the other person enough to try to understand them), and not stated my thoughts in the language that would initially be my first impulse to.

    O's responses felt to me that she did not take into account the fact that Fe users are all separate individuals, whith different function orders, different experiences, and different levels of interest in bridging that gap. I believe understanding functions explains people's instinctive impulses, but does not conclusively define them. I see Fi users time and time again insisting that Fe users force them into an unfair one size fits all mold when I feel that that's what is being done right back. When I did express as politely, but directly as I could what kind of response that invokes in me (thus seeking further information or perspective rather than jumping to the conclusion that Fi users are selfish or hypocritical), it was mostly glossed over and attention turned back to how Fe users attack Orobas as well as that even though some progress has been made in these threads, it should not take as long as it has.

    I do understand that I need to pay more attention to the feelings behind those words rather than the words themselves. On the other hand, I find it very hard to continue on with discussion if I believe there's been a huge error made and also if I feel that my efforts are trivialized. Maybe it's because a core value of Fe is trying to accommodate and understand. If I feel like I've worked hard to do both and someone basically walks in and says that my efforts don't count for anything, it is going to make me feel like no longer bothering to try or that the other person expects understanding without giving either the information or reciprocation for that to happen. It kind of feels like the person is telling me that something which is a significant part of my identity is something that I am terrible at, and not offering any constructive information beyond that.

    I think from a Fi perspective, it is just that the person is saying how their own experience feels to them. From my perspective it does feel like a negative judgement and not recognizing how out of their way people already are going to try to better understand. I've also noticed in the past that when I bring up issues to Fi users of what really is bothering me, they tend to gloss over them because they are looking at the reason for communicating it as being the same as their own reason would be. In this case, I only bring something up if I need more information or if I feel like there is a roadblock in our communication that needs to be addressed before we can continue on effectively.

    You have no idea, highlander, how something as simple as recognizing the fact that a roadblock has been hit (at least from the other person's perspective) and validating that by asking about it dissipates a lot of the frustration or emotion that would otherwise be directed at you.

    You said highlander that it is not as immediately obvious to you as to why something is a problem for us and then it is like stepping on landmines. I found that interesting with the INFJ Common Issues thread. INFJs were getting increasing frustrated, blunt and direct with an ENFP who in return felt hurt and attacked but wouldn't back off with Te suggestions that had not been invited in the first place and she kept making assertions about INFJs that seemed inaccurate and were lacking key pieces of information. To the INFJs, it seems painfully obvious what was wrong, in fact we thought we had stated and re-stated what was the issue. Someone else later on in the thread said something to her that was stated just slightly differently and all of the sudden, things seemed to come into focus for her. I am interested in investigating further what a few tweaks in language for either side would do in more effectively conveying in effectively translated language where problems are before they become big issues.
    Do you really feel like you have tried, or do you think you have tried. How connected is your use of the word feelings to how you actually feel while trying? I honestly dont feel when I try. I dont "feel" like I am trying, though I have been conditioned to use the word feel because thats the closest think to say to explain that I did put forth effort. Sometime words can easily confuse things, especially when we use words out of habit instead of to really express our internal process.

  6. #396
    Senior Member Array Bamboo's Avatar
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    Summary of 395+ posts in less than 15 sentences:

    - Some things are right, some things are wrong, some things can't be figured out, and some things are opinions. Sometimes people think opinions are facts. They might make this mistake because they don't think it through and just follow other people. In other cases, people have their own personal biases. In both cases, people may get vindictive toward imagined threats. This is a no-no.

    - Sometimes skills useful for one task are inappropriate for others.

    - People need to be spoken to in their own personal "language" (or be adept at translation themselves) to understand other people. Some people are really hard to communicate with in general, but it also varies depending on your own "native tongue" if communication will go well.

    Misunderstandings can make people feel like doo-doo.

    - People should keep their cool and not let their emotions blind them from understanding. That's also a no-no.


    Did I miss anything?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  7. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Summary of 395+ posts in a few sentences:

    - Some things are right, some things are wrong, some things can't be figured out, and some things are opinions. Sometimes people think opinions are facts. They might make this mistake because they don't really think it through and just see everyone else agreeing with it and follow along. In other cases, people have their own personal biases. In both cases, people may get really vindictive despite not thinking things through. This is a no-no.

    - Sometimes skills useful for one task are inappropriate for others.

    - Additionally, people need to be spoken to in their own personal "language" (or be adept at translation themselves) to understand other people. Some people are really hard to communicate with in general, but it also varies depending on your own "native tongue" if communication will go well.

    Misunderstandings can make people feel like doo-doo.

    - People should keep their cool and not let their emotions blind them from understanding. That's also a no-no.

    Did I miss anything?
    I doubt it. And thanks, you should start charging.

  8. #398
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ those things are true, but we like to see how close we can get ... everyone who participates here is very interested in getting closer and closer to deeper appreciation of each other. Trying to bridge the gaps.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #399
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Summary of 395+ posts in less than 15 sentences:

    - Some things are right, some things are wrong, some things can't be figured out, and some things are opinions. Sometimes people think opinions are facts. They might make this mistake because they don't think it through and just follow other people. In other cases, people have their own personal biases. In both cases, people may get vindictive toward imagined threats. This is a no-no.

    - Sometimes skills useful for one task are inappropriate for others.

    - People need to be spoken to in their own personal "language" (or be adept at translation themselves) to understand other people. Some people are really hard to communicate with in general, but it also varies depending on your own "native tongue" if communication will go well.

    Misunderstandings can make people feel like doo-doo.

    - People should keep their cool and not let their emotions blind them from understanding. That's also a no-no.


    Did I miss anything?
    LMAO

  10. #400
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Do you really feel like you have tried, or do you think you have tried. How connected is your use of the word feelings to how you actually feel while trying? I honestly dont feel when I try. I dont "feel" like I am trying, though I have been conditioned to use the word feel because thats the closest think to say to explain that I did put forth effort. Sometime words can easily confuse things, especially when we use words out of habit instead of to really express our internal process.
    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at Poki. When I say I feel I have tried, check out my involvement on most of the Fe/Fi threads over the last year or so. I feel that the amount of effort that has gone into asking questions or working through conflicts or expressing thoughts and asking others about their though processes represents a sincere desire to understand.

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