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Thread: Dear Fe User,

  1. #31
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Fe can be exercised through a point that is not popular. Fe is based on a perceived judgement- to act in the interests of what is perceived to be the best way that will satisfy the majority. So a Fe-er can feel that their judgement will satisfy the majority but be totally wrong. "They can feel that everyone loves chocolate ice cream" and bring that to the office party, only to find out that most people don't like it. When they learn that, then they either feel bad or hustle to find out what everyone really likes, and make it right.

  2. #32
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course everyone can be arrogant. If we're talking patterns, then I'd say yes, Fi is less arrogant in this regard exactly because there is an acute awareness that their Feeling is individual, which Fe sometimes lacks. Fe seems to be sure of its rightness, and that's often because, as mentioned, it has the benefit of consensus.
    ...
    When Fi is arrogant, then you'll find it more "elitist". Instead of trying to impose its standards on others, it tries to set its standards apart as superior, and excludes people who don't meet their standard.
    I wonder if there's an element of different types detecting arrogance differently, too? I see the second ("Fi" in your example) type of arrogance as far more arrogant than the first type. It occurs to me that perhaps Fi users would see it the reverse?

    Iz has a good point, too. I'd add to it that Fe can be unpopular in another way, too: if what's (perceived to be) best for the individuals isn't necessarily what they would prefer. So Fe taking a parental or teaching role, I guess.
    -end of thread-

  3. #33
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It seems there is a lot of confusion on the overlap between the two functions. Can you elaborate more on why it is impossible to use them in isolation from one another? I actually view them as quite different but am not an Fe or Fi dom or aux.
    I might be able to give better thought to it on another day, but will do my best. I also am not the best direct source of an example of either since I'm an INFJ that scores higher in Fi on cognitive function tests.

    I can see from theory exactly why one could say Fe unites groups in negative emotion and punishment like the proverbial witch hunt. I've also been said to have too much Fe the times I've pushed back against the crowd in defense of a person. Would that then be Fi because of the principle of not ganging up? Or is it Fe because I care about the other person's feelings and being singled out? - or maybe am even trying to restore group cohesion? The motivation to stand up for an ostracized person could be either function, and I'm not even sure that every time I've done it from the same motivation.

    I made a post a long time ago that looked at a second pole in addition to intrapersonal vs. interpersonal (either understanding the internal workings of self or the external social dynamics of a group). I suggest that an internal vs. external focus can form a second axis - this second axis has to do with which vantage point the person views a sense of self. I think these are separate axis which could align in the following ways:

    Intrapersonal and Internal = This is a person who focuses on their internal subjective realm and gains an understanding of humanity through their own self. This person might express insights in artistic or creative contribution, but the primary connection is not to the outside world.

    Intrapersonal and External = This is the person who focuses on individuals outside themselves, but not on how those individuals interrelate. Identity could be formed in terms of relationships to specific individuals, but group identity is insignificant. This focus could produce a deeper form of empathy because its focus is on the actual external person, not projection of self onto that person.

    Interpersonal and Internal = Focus is on self in relationship to the group. This person would choose to stand out or maybe influence a group, but never sacrificing personal identity. This person can strongly influence social consciousness. Their identity is formed by their individual relationship to a group and is depending on group dynamics.

    Interpersonal and External = Focus is on the relationships among a group. This person sees self as a member of a larger group and places social identity over individual. They work to keep the peace and may work in anonymity with a lot of sacrifice.

    I think there are even more poles, and I'm not sure if you can categorize the above two for two with Fi and Fe. The relationship between the point of focus being where identity is viewed from, internal or external; and the understanding of the dynamics that exist within a system, either intrapersonal or interpersonal, can take on many forms. I really think this only scratches the surface and there are many, many more poles that could be deconstructed from a person's sense of identity and relationship. Maybe even systems motivated by harmony or conflict could create another pole, because those are subjective core concepts, and both can produce positive results (it's not a positive and negative, but just contrasting systems).
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I wonder if there's an element of different types detecting arrogance differently, too? I see the second ("Fi" in your example) type of arrogance as far more arrogant than the first type. It occurs to me that perhaps Fi users would see it the reverse?

    Iz has a good point, too. I'd add to it that Fe can be unpopular in another way, too: if what's (perceived to be) best for the individuals isn't necessarily what they would prefer. So Fe taking a parental or teaching role, I guess.
    FWIW if there is such a thing as Fi (ha) I don't think it's less arrogant than Fe. My ISTJ grandfather was deeply rooted in his convictions of right/wrong, good/bad, although ethics wasn't usually his first priority, he was much more practical, anti-social, and TJ-ish (also a pretty extreme introvert, maybe an ISTJ with just a touch of aspergers I've come to think recently). But when it did come down to moral questions, he was sure to tell you whether or not he thought you were a decent human being or a piece of shit. He was also one of those gay-hating Christians, unfortunately. The weirdest part was that he wasn't even extremely religious, didn't attend church regularly...

    Um but yeah I think NFPs can get pretty self-righteous at times, too. I've been told I seem more ENFJ than ENFP because of my need to be "right" vs. "understood" and so maybe I am NFJ after all...but it's really hard to tell sometimes. I do know I get annoyed with some of the self-proclaimed Fi users on this site because I feel like they're being blindly self-absorbed but then turn around and say people with Fe are so righteous and arrogant.

    It's one of the reasons for choosing to avoid function theory for the most part.

  5. #35
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I wonder if there's an element of different types detecting arrogance differently, too? I see the second ("Fi" in your example) type of arrogance as far more arrogant than the first type. It occurs to me that perhaps Fi users would see it the reverse?

    Iz has a good point, too. I'd add to it that Fe can be unpopular in another way, too: if what's (perceived to be) best for the individuals isn't necessarily what they would prefer. So Fe taking a parental or teaching role, I guess.
    Probably. The bolded is a good example of what seems "arrogant" about Fe; it's assuming they know what is best for others, despite how others actually feel. They can sometimes do this to the point where they victimize themselves, so they will not see they were wrong or pushy, but they will claim that the other person just didn't "appreciate" their efforts. They don't stop to think that maybe their efforts were not correct or considerate & that they were projecting their own feeling too much. They may even imply that they were right, and that what the other person feels is wrong, which justifies their action & puts blame on the response of the other person. In this sense, Fe is less adaptable to individuals, allowing for less variance in feeling. It's almost like they can't imagine not knowing what is best for people, which is definitely an over-confidence that can become arrogant.

    This arrogance is not detected by many IRL; they're often successful in painting themselves the victim of those who are being unresponsive to their efforts. This is why Fe is often viewed more positively in reality than Fi. You'll see Fi types more readily admit flaws in general; we'll pretty much hand you the ammunition that we're sometimes too sensitive or self-absorbed or whatever, without justification for them. Fe sometimes types puts this positive, "I'm too perfect & caring for my own good" spin on their flaws, and it works.
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #36
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hi Annwn,

    Interesting post - I see what you are defining above as interactions well-described through the enneagram.

    Myself, I score as high in Fe as Fi and almost the same Ne & Ni on those cognitive function tests, but I *know* I am not an Fe user. I tell you though, before I used to come to this site and really go deep on these Fe / Fi discussions, I saw myself as pretty darn proficient in Fe ... thought I had much more insight into the structural components of that "way of thinking". I don't; I just don't think the same way. Oh, I can pass myself off as one fair enough. (I agree the terms "Fe user" and "Fi user" are imprecise and lack sophistication ... and no one uses functions in isolation, but time and time again there are two sides to this fence, and the views of Fe are generally on one, and Fi on the other.)

    I have not once come across a thread where an Fi user is trying to explain Fi and an Fe user say "OH I GET IT NOW!" Has not happened. Ever. So to me that's becoming a pretty powerful, replicated pattern. And I have given it my best shot too, and have not met with success either. There's this point where we can get oh so close, but like two poles of magnetic force, at some point we push away, we just don't seem to connect.

    The point? I don't know; just that if this discussion bears fruit it would be pretty amazing. I am still hopeful.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #37
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Probably. The bolded is a good example of what seems "arrogant" about Fe; it's assuming they know what is best for others, despite how others actually feel.
    This is something I used to be terribly guilty of doing...and have to constantly remind myself NOT to do it now...although I am sure I sometimes fail. I walk amongst Fe users and it is indeed a common thread that I have observed. It's a really unappealing quality However, I can say that I believe the intentions to always be good...just at times misguided. It's the flip side of what is usually a good quality (among healthy Fe users).
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
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    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoSunshine View Post
    This is something I used to be terribly guilty of doing...and have to constantly remind myself NOT to do it now...although I am sure I sometimes fail. I walk amongst Fe users and it is indeed a common thread that I have observed. It's a really unappealing quality However, I can say that I believe the intentions to always be good...just at times misguided. It's the flip side of what is usually a good quality (among healthy Fe users).
    This is like "fixing" people, amirite? I used to do that when I was much younger. But then again I've heard ENFPs will take on people as unsuspecting projects...see? This is why I find all of this so confusing.

    I can spot an ESFJ far away because I find them to be the most likely to push things on people with good intentions, because those things are the standard norm, and they sincerely don't see why anyone wouldn't be thrilled to have a [insert decorative holiday item or similar object]. I know they have good intentions though, so it doesn't bug me.

    What does bug me is the easily offendable morality police, and I've seen this just as much in Fi users as Fe users, at least on this forum. I'd say it's a really even split.

    Let me give another example: if someone is basically a nice person but is totally inconsiderate of others, think they have different rules that apply to them for whatever reason they can dream up, they see any kind of Fe as infringement upon that? Because that really isn't fair. Tactical example: a roommate who hoards dirty dishes and routinely doesn't wash their own dishes or even make dishes available to other roommates, and/or spreads their crap out everywhere, but has the audacity to become offended if someone touches their stuff to move it out of the way in consideration of others.

    To me, this is a situation where Fe is absolutely correct to intrude, and Fi is just being unbelievably childish and selfish. On the other hand, I think bombarding people with Fe structure can really be a pain in the butt, like it's just plain bothersome and unnecessary, and in that case is wrong to intrude.

  9. #39
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is like "fixing" people, amirite?
    Yep...I would say that sums it up. I don't know any other ENFJ's (and have never known any well), so I can only speak for myself when I say this. My ESFJ cohorts tend to be much more likely to get people to conform to "norms" than me. I actually encourage people to march to the beat of their own drummer. I would say my "fixing" comes more in the form of trying to get people to be authentic and true to themselves and to live out their dreams...however this means that sometimes I overstep my bounds and try to push people to do things they aren't ready to do and may never want to do. I'm the one trying to get my friend to wear the stupid hat she loves, but won't do it because she is self-conscious or trying to get someone to go back to school because it is what they ultimately want to do. But in either case, I need to be mindful to be respectful of the feelings and opinions that prevent people from doing the things they really want.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
    Extroverted (E) 52.5%........Introverted (I) 47.5%
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    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  10. #40
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I always have the feeling like I'm talking to people raised by wolves when it's an Fi/Fe discussion. Here's what I think: There are certain social conventions that you learn, growing up, hopefully, and these are a symbol language. We have these conventions of behavior so we can understand each other beyond our own individual peculiarities. So if someone is sick, perhaps you send flowers, or you visit and bring soup, or you send a card. Any of those things is a gesture expressing good will. It boggles my mind that someone's gesture toward another person's good would be spurned because it's not exactly what was wanted. IT'S THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS.

    The idea is that unless someone else is your intimate, they are not expected to know what you as an individual might prefer. This is where, after you get to know the person, you gently indicate that your appreciation for chicken soup is somewhat limited and actually you're a vegan, and you both laugh, and the next time you're sick, they send flowers instead.

    Or is this the kind of thing you're even talking about? (What ARE you talking about, specifically?)

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